2015 WWE Battleground

[HollywoodLeo]

christ, thats understood... but sometimes cena needs to lose. or at least in the case of tonight, it shouldve been a silly finish, to lead us to summerslam. cenas beat cesaro, cenas beat rusev, now cenas beat owens the last two... whats next for him? nothing, storyline wise, or kayfabe wise, is interesting. lets feed rollins to cena now!

I don't disagree with your conclusion. I just disagree with the extremist world is ending complaints used to lead to the conclusion.

[HollywoodLeo]

So if the guy who beat Cena CLEAN in the first match can't beat him in either of the next 2 *with almost all the momentum*... Who can beat Cena?

You answered your own question.

[Foster]

Also, let us not forget they've booked Owens for the NXT Takeover the night before. I know he's capable of doing two shows in a weekend, but thats not the E's style.

[Hammer]

I don't disagree with your conclusion. I just disagree with the extremist world is ending complaints used to lead to the conclusion.

im not saying the world is ending necessarily... but wheres wyatt now? right back to where he started... literally... after tonight. wheres barrett now? as i said, losing to cena isnt a total deathknell... and feeding guys to cena like this, makes it important when someone actually does beat him... but after owens beat him clean the first time, he shouldve come out of this feud as the winner. the best way to book it, was even your own thought, with cesaro and rusev ruining tonight, leading to a 4 way, and having owens pin someone other than cena. cena doesnt lose, owens wins the us belt, everyones happy. tonights result was all around shit. theres no way to sugar coat it. im a cena apologist, ill admit it, but there was no need for tonight.

[Slyder]

I don't disagree with your conclusion. I just disagree with the extremist world is ending complaints used to lead to the conclusion.

Thats the thing he didn't win the title.

[HollywoodLeo]

im not saying the world is ending necessarily... but wheres wyatt now? right back to where he started... literally... after tonight. wheres barrett now? as i said, losing to cena isnt a total deathknell... and feeding guys to cena like this, makes it important when someone actually does beat him... but after owens beat him clean the first time, he shouldve come out of this feud as the winner. the best way to book it, was even your own thought, with cesaro and rusev ruining tonight, leading to a 4 way, and having owens pin someone other than cena. cena doesnt lose, owens wins the us belt, everyones happy. tonights result was all around shit. theres no way to sugar coat it. im a cena apologist, ill admit it, but there was no need for tonight.

Wyatt didn't need to be where he is now, though. That's the crux of my argument. Losing a feud to Cena isn't why Wyatt is where he is now. Not following that up with competent booking, to include losing other subsequent feuds is why he's where he's at right now. They've dropped the ball on him all together, not just on losing a match to John Cena at Wrestlemania.

Barrett isn't where he's at right now because way back when he lost a feud with Cena as the leader of the Nexus. He's where he's at now because after that they did jack shit with him (and continue to do jack shit with him). It doesn't all culminate from lost feuds with Cena. There's an entire package to look at.

People have lost to John Cena and still gone on to be successful.

If Owens goes nowhere after this it'll be because they failed to book him back up to relevancy as you agreed is capable of being done, not because he lost a feud with Cena that yes he nevertheless should have won.

All I've really been arguing against this entire time is this conclusion, which aren't your words but something you brought to the table.

"It's gone. He's just another guy now."

[HollywoodLeo]

Also, if everyone that "should have" won a feud against Cena won it because they "needed it more" then winning a feud against Cena wouldn't mean as much, kinda like people kicking out of finishers now versus when they did so in the Attitude Era. More common means not as meaningful.

Perhaps Owens should have been that guy but I guess he's not. If/when it happens it'll be that much more special.

[ImJussSayin]

Wyatt didn't need to be where he is now, though. That's the crux of my argument. Losing a feud to Cena isn't why Wyatt is where he is now. Not following that up with competent booking, to include losing other subsequent feuds is why he's where he's at right now. They've dropped the ball on him all together, not just on losing a match to John Cena at Wrestlemania.

If Owens goes nowhere after this it'll be because they failed to book him back up to relevancy as you agreed is capable of being done, not because he lost a feud with Cena that yes he nevertheless should have won.

All I've really been arguing against this entire time is this conclusion, which aren't your words but something you brought to the table.

"It's gone. He's just another guy now."

It isn't just the fact that couldn't follow up a Cena feud with good booking, I would say just as much of it is the fact that you not only stopped all of their momentum, but actually made them take a step back. If Owens won clean tonight, it puts him into the top 5 in the company, right now. I honestly believe the correct moment was right when Cena was frustrated after the AA off the top, Owens counters into a pop up powerbomb for the win. After having Owens kick out of the Attitude Adjustment from the top, how do you NOT have him win?

You go with that clean finish, and Owens probably has enough momentum that he could be a Royal Rumble favorite next year and be that big, that fast.

Unfortunately, now what for Owens? You can find a way to extend this feud which is ridiculous since this feud was in our face every week. If this was slow played at all, I would be alright with it. Such as if you brought a third or fourth talent in sooner so you could've delayed the actual rubber match until Summerslam. I mean I guess they can keep it going but they missed multiple other ways to do this right.

If you have him go onto another feud, with who? There are three huge ways to get over right now, and they involve Undertaker, Lesnar, and having Owens pin Cena tonight like he should have. The other two options make zero sense for obvious reasons at the moment. So while the booking after the feuds sucks, it is hard to keep momentum when whoever your next feud is, is a MAJOR DEMOTION.

Again, they could extend this on longer until Summerslam so he wins the belt at a major event, but even they handled how to do that terribly

[Slyder]

Again, they could extend this on longer until Summerslam so he wins the belt at a major event, but even they handled how to do that terribly

Then you should have had the screwy finish with Cesaro and Rusev getting it thrown out.

[HollywoodLeo]

To play Devil's Advocate if the plan is to draw the feud out but not necessarily with plans of a fatal 4 way then the screwy finish involving Rusev and Cesaro doesn't make quite as much sense.

[Slyder]

To play Devil's Advocate if the plan is to draw the feud out but not necessarily with plans of a fatal 4 way then the screwy finish involving Rusev and Cesaro doesn't make quite as much sense.

Double count out as they brawl to the back or do something big in the ring side area and then make it no dq, hell in the cell, falls count anywhere, etc. (No I quits you know where that leads)

[HollywoodLeo]

Vince should let us book for a year and see how it works.

[ImJussSayin]

Right, I am siding with you vs Leo. Although that may have been a bad idea because of how the Main Event turned out. However, they could have reasonably added Cesaro actually INTO the match at some point in recent weeks. Maybe even have Rusev or Neville back into the fold. Neville had already gotten involved with these guys twice recently. Imagine if at Battleground Owens powerbombed someone, then Cena hit the AA on Owens but pinned the guy who took the powerbomb, not Owens to retain? Clean match that continues a nice build towards a last singles match at Summerslam.

As far as the Wyatt argument goes, and that he lost subsequent feuds... remember, he had months of beating on Ambrose to try and look strong for the Undertaker. Guess what? He still went in against Undertaker looking weak. People had HOPE that he would find a way to get over in the match, but fact is, if Wyatt came away from the Cena feud then it wouldn't be an issue. It would have been a STAR vs a Legend as opposed to the Young/new guy vs Legend.

Ugh, I just can't get over it. After that AA from the top ropes was the perfect time. If they give them the same chance to do it again it may be ruined, just because they the shock value is gone.

[HollywoodLeo]

Wyatt looked weak against Taker because of a combination of Taker being absent the entire feud, Wyatt suffering a real injury that he worked through, and not beating TAKER like he should have.

Losing to Cena a year prior to all of that has no bearing on that matter.

[ImJussSayin]

Wyatt looked weak against Taker because of a combination of Taker being absent the entire feud, Wyatt suffering a real injury that he worked through, and not beating TAKER like he should have.

Losing to Cena a year prior to all of that has no bearing on that matter.

Also, because of coming out on the wrong side against Cena. You have to come away strong with a clean win against a top opponent in a way that has a "moment." That is how you become a TOP STAR in the company. They all have those moments. When the former top stars put over the new guys. Unfortunately when Cena walks away with the win, you have built the new guy up for nothing. To be the man, you've got to beat the man, and you have got to do it when it matters most. So yes, every time Cena comes out of a feud with a win it is a HUGE detriment to building these new guys into top stars.

Instead of breaking through the glass and getting on Cena's level as a top star, they are still stuck trying to break through. We all saw how long Bryan had to fight for it. I mean I will give them a chance to play this out, but it will be hard to imagine me not coming back to this moment and still wishing it was done differently.