Role of the trade council discussion

[Impossibles]

I would say good luck having a league that let's its members do whatever they want. You'll find that there's more people that would not want any part of a league like that, than the few who do. And Porter painted it very clearly, these 3 leagues have been around for a great length of time. They have all had councils in place. I am not saying they exist for this length because of a TC either, just that the council works and it's not broken despite what you may believe. You claim a big deal isn't being made, however, I get the sense it is because you keep providing reasons why you feel the need to change the council, or abolish it.

Your only argument seems to be "it is what it is and it works so lets leave it". That's not constructive debate. Debate isn't bad, it makes one question why they do things. I'm not hellbent on change, but I would appreciate some sort of explanation.

Per the league FAQ:

III. The Trade Council judges a trade on three mediums that they must pass for a trade to be processed

A. Financial: This is simple, if the amount of money you receive in player salary in a trade outnumbers your FA available money, you can't do the trade. For instance

PHI has 5 million in FA money, and he receives a 7 million dollar player in a trade without getting 2 million, giving a 2 million+ player(s), or a combination of both, he cannot do said trade

B. Deception. If a player is injured or has a serious problem, and the person is deceived into doing a deal without them knowing, we will stop the trade to make sure the person receiving the problematic player knows.

C. Talent discrepency. This is easily the most touchy subject, and I think we are pretty strict on trades that are horribly unfair. If one guy gets a 5 star prospect for a 2 star player, we won't pass it unless there are circumstances for said situation. We are picky, and I don't know how I will explain this, but we use our common sense.

Seems like C has gone from preventing horribly unfair trades to judging trades.

Again, I fail to see how it helps the league to prevent teams from making deals they agree on. I would love to hear an explanation on why things are the way they are rather than just disregard the question.

[HollywoodLeo]

Mission said he's not against changes, just doesn't want to publicly debatethe issue. That's good enough for me.

[Impossibles]

Mission said he's not against changes, just doesn't want to publicly debatethe issue. That's good enough for me.

He said he isn't going to debate here. He is reading the discussion, he just doesn't want to get into an argument and take what is said into consideration.

He actually said "...so please keep discussing guys." in post #14.

[Kingdom]

At some point, you have to own up to the fact that the trades were bad. And you followed that up by low balling the Hell out of your star players. I mean, 9 million for 2 years for Krull? Really? If making a half assed attempt at resigning your players was in some effort to get us to feel sorry for you or ultimately change how we handle voting in council, then you're mistaken.

[Impossibles]

At some point, you have to own up to the fact that the trades were bad. And you followed that up by low balling the Hell out of your star players. I mean, 9 million for 2 years for Krull? Really? If making a half assed attempt at resigning your players was in some effort to get us to feel sorry for you or ultimately change how we handle voting in council, then you're mistaken.

Why should my re-signing efforts have any weight at all on the trade process?

I started low hoping to sign them cheap...what is wrong with that? Do we need a council to judge re-sign offers?

[Impossibles]

At some point, you have to own up to the fact that the trades were bad. And you followed that up by low balling the Hell out of your star players. I mean, 9 million for 2 years for Krull? Really? If making a half assed attempt at resigning your players was in some effort to get us to feel sorry for you or ultimately change how we handle voting in council, then you're mistaken.

You're obviously taking this personally, which its not intended to be at all. I get your opinion, I'd like to hear what others have to say.

[cjkalt]

No one is saying disband the TC... We are suggesting it might not be a bad idea to try something a little bit different...

The TC is still needed and Impossibles/I have both expressed a bunch of cases where the current rules should be used, we are suggesting a tweak, not an overhaul...

Also I wouldn't have put this thread in this league... This TC is the best of the 3 imo... Just funny Impossibles/I have a pending deal we both really need in another league and I'm semi-worried atm

I would say good luck having a league that let's its members do whatever they want. You'll find that there's more people that would not want any part of a league like that, than the few who do. And Porter painted it very clearly, these 3 leagues have been around for a great length of time. They have all had councils in place. I am not saying they exist for this length because of a TC either, just that the council works and it's not broken despite what you may believe. You claim a big deal isn't being made, however, I get the sense it is because you keep providing reasons why you feel the need to change the council, or abolish it.

[Pronk]

So far being in these leagues I have had 3 trades offers and two of which got vetoed. OM gave me and the other GM plenty of time to re-work the trade and also explained to me what the TC had problems with in the trade so myself and the other GM could quickly workout a re-worked trade. On all of the trades I and the other GM's did this and the re-worked trades were all passed. I think if a trade is vetoed it should be run exactly this way giving the GM's a reason why the TC thought the traded failed and also given the GM's ample time to re-work the deal.

[Providence A's]

Consistency is key. Otherwise, my suggestion is to submit better deals. Sometimes you submit your best and it's not good enough (my Bemudez deal). Oh well. Other times it's just low-ballin'...pure and simple.

[Trendy Bastard]

Consistency is key. Otherwise, my suggestion is to submit better deals. Sometimes you submit your best and it's not good enough (my Bemudez deal). Oh well. Other times it's just low-ballin'...pure and simple.

My opinion mirrors this.

[OrioleMagic]

I will try to voice my thoughts I guess....

I'll start by saying as gently as I can, that CJ, GF, and JC, and once in a while a few others, have established trends of taking advantage of new GMs and submitting trades that are blatantly in their favor at the expense of the other GM, with no regard for league parity. We have to respect the game. The fun is a balance of what is out of our human control (AI) and what is in our control. I respect the GMs who study the game over on the OOTP boards, which is tougher to do now since we play a 5+ year old version of the current game, and even purchase the game and play it on their own and understand it's intracacies. If it becomes clear to you that a new GM doesn't value a player properly, it's your duty as the senior GM to either help him or send him to the Commish for help. I have no respect for a senior GM who turns in an unfair trade and says, "well he offered it". This is why a TC is necessary.

I'd like to digress for a short minute, nothing annoys me more than seeing a prospect sitting on the bench in the minor leagues because some VETERAN GM (mnwtinsfan/Lon Warneke) STILL doesn't know that he needs to tell the Commish to auto his minor leagues after every transaction. Honestly, we have some senior GMs who seem to not completely understand the way the game works. I have announced countless times that there are only 9 batting slots and 15 pitching slots for each minor league level, just like MLB. Why do senior GMs who for the most part are active, keep 45-50 players on a AAA roster? In most cases, anything over 30 is pointless, and when your at the maximum of 50, and you instruct the commissioner to demote 2 guys from MLB to AAA, he can't because your roster is at a maximum. So we demote to AA, then promote the 2 from AAA, and then have to promote the original two from AA to AAA to give you what you need.

Here is my $.02 to CJ, Impossibles, and other GMs who are advocating a change in TC philosophy... Study the game, buy or download for free, OOTP 6.5, learn what stat category contact translates to, learn what eye translates to, learn what all the categories mean, and how they affect the performance of the player in the stat engines. Impossibles has been given a great opportunity in HSL. I hate to sound like Yoda, but learn the f'n game before you bitch about what the TC should or shouldn't do. CJ, you are still trying to game the system by tanking at times and then a mass trade off of prospects for MLB contending players. Slow down, strike a balance in your strategy, give the players time to develop and peak, hopefully together. PM the GMs who have successful dynasties and ask them what they are doing. I really enjoyed the IM conversations over the years with various GMs about what they look for in a player and what is a largely irrelavent player category.

I know I have strayed from the topic a little bit, but I am trying to get some of you back to the game itself and not the TC or uneven trades. Sometimes GMs take the fun out of the game... Let's not do that.

[cjkalt]

I will try to voice my thoughts I guess....

I'll start by saying as gently as I can, that CJ, GF, and JC, and once in a while a few others, have established trends of taking advantage of new GMs and submitting trades that are blatantly in their favor at the expense of the other GM, with no regard for league parity. We have to respect the game. The fun is a balance of what is out of our human control (AI) and what is in our control. I respect the GMs who study the game over on the OOTP boards, which is tougher to do now since we play a 5+ year old version of the current game, and even purchase the game and play it on their own and understand it's intracacies. If it becomes clear to you that a new GM doesn't value a player properly, it's your duty as the senior GM to either help him or send him to the Commish for help. I have no respect for a senior GM who turns in an unfair trade and says, "well he offered it". This is why a TC is necessary.

I'd like to digress for a short minute, nothing annoys me more than seeing a prospect sitting on the bench in the minor leagues because some VETERAN GM (mnwtinsfan/Lon Warneke) STILL doesn't know that he needs to tell the Commish to auto his minor leagues after every transaction. Honestly, we have some senior GMs who seem to not completely understand the way the game works. I have announced countless times that there are only 9 batting slots and 15 pitching slots for each minor league level, just like MLB. Why do senior GMs who for the most part are active, keep 45-50 players on a AAA roster? In most cases, anything over 30 is pointless, and when your at the maximum of 50, and you instruct the commissioner to demote 2 guys from MLB to AAA, he can't because your roster is at a maximum. So we demote to AA, then promote the 2 from AAA, and then have to promote the original two from AA to AAA to give you what you need.

Here is my $.02 to CJ, Impossibles, and other GMs who are advocating a change in TC philosophy... Study the game, buy or download for free, OOTP 6.5, learn what stat category contact translates to, learn what eye translates to, learn what all the categories mean, and how they affect the performance of the player in the stat engines. Impossibles has been given a great opportunity in HSL. I hate to sound like Yoda, but learn the f'n game before you bitch about what the TC should or shouldn't do. CJ, you are still trying to game the system by tanking at times and then a mass trade off of prospects for MLB contending players. Slow down, strike a balance in your strategy, give the players time to develop and peak, hopefully together. PM the GMs who have successful dynasties and ask them what they are doing. I enjoyed the IM conversations with various GMs about what they look for in a player and what is a largely irrelavent player category.

I know I have strayed from the topic a little bit, but I am trying to some of you back to the game itself and not the TC or uneven trades. Sometimes GMs take the fun out of the game... Let's not do that.

1) No need to attack how I run my team, you run yours I'll run mine.
2) I already stated that my trades would need to follow the current rules no matter what due to my history. This isn't about me being able to get good deals its about whats right for the OOTP game in general
3) You know I asked you for the league file back in 04 and have been playing my own game year by year with your settings up til the changes, so don't tell me I haven't been doing research when you knew that already (Go back and look at how I draft (I made it easy) that kinda success doesn't just happen)
4) Outside of S3SL when I simply missed the 1st 2 sims after the long break (after I bought players in FA) I haven't tanked anywhere. You know better as the commish in HSL, I signed Peavy to a 7 yr 20 mil deal, and signed some vets for the gap year.

5) Since you have attacked my style, you aren't noticing the difference between this buying and the last one. I'm targeting younger players. Most of the players I've been going after hitting wise are in their 20's so that this won't be a flash in the pan, sure it cost me Portillo and other great specs but this is a long haul move. SP wise I went and got Lorenzo because he's a stud and Peavy/Lorenzo 1-2 will be tough for any team to beat. and when they age I have Cote/Brady/Lobo as 3 of the 4 best SP specs in the game to fill their spots. Also my system in HSL is that deep that I will have players to come and fill in as players age this time around with my picks. (I'd take a cheap shot here about my top specs dying off board but I don't actually think you do this, I just wish that was the answer sometimes)

This plan was inspired by Prov's Cardinals in TSSL and Porter's Mariners in HSL (before he messed it up by spending big to prove a point) and should work in the long haul...

Now I've gotten away from the meat of this too, but to say I don't know what the TC does is laughable, I know the game, I've done the research. The TC uses strict scrutiny when it comes to my deals and thats fine, but telling me that offering a good 5.0 spec, 1st round pick, and developmental 5.0 spec for a 31 yr old pitcher with a career 3.6 era is winning a deal vs a new GM then so be it... but its not collusion/destroying the league

[Molina00]

I hate to sound like Yoda, but learn the f'n game before you bitch about what the TC should or shouldn't do.

I'm sorry, but I never heard Yoda say anything like that.

Definately agree on the full AAA roster part. Very annoying when MLB and AAA are both full and they want callups and demotions between those levels. I agree with everything else too. I just couldn't let that Yoda comment pass by.

[HafDawg2003]

lolz all ur basez belong 2 me

i declare victory, close dis thread plz. <3

[OrioleMagic]

1) No need to attack how I run my team, you run yours I'll run mine.
2) I already stated that my trades would need to follow the current rules no matter what due to my history. This isn't about me being able to get good deals its about whats right for the OOTP game in general
3) You know I asked you for the league file back in 04 and have been playing my own game year by year with your settings up til the changes, so don't tell me I haven't been doing research when you knew that already (Go back and look at how I draft (I made it easy) that kinda success doesn't just happen)
4) Outside of S3SL when I simply missed the 1st 2 sims after the long break (after I bought players in FA) I haven't tanked anywhere. You know better as the commish in HSL, I signed Peavy to a 7 yr 20 mil deal, and signed some vets for the gap year.

5) Since you have attacked my style, you aren't noticing the difference between this buying and the last one. I'm targeting younger players. Most of the players I've been going after hitting wise are in their 20's so that this won't be a flash in the pan, sure it cost me Portillo and other great specs but this is a long haul move. SP wise I went and got Lorenzo because he's a stud and Peavy/Lorenzo 1-2 will be tough for any team to beat. and when they age I have Cote/Brady/Lobo as 3 of the 4 best SP specs in the game to fill their spots. Also my system in HSL is that deep that I will have players to come and fill in as players age this time around with my picks. (I'd take a cheap shot here about my top specs dying off board but I don't actually think you do this, I just wish that was the answer sometimes)

This plan was inspired by Prov's Cardinals in TSSL and Porter's Mariners in HSL (before he messed it up by spending big to prove a point) and should work in the long haul...

Now I've gotten away from the meat of this too, but to say I don't know what the TC does is laughable, I know the game, I've done the research. The TC uses strict scrutiny when it comes to my deals and thats fine, but telling me that offering a good 5.0 spec, 1st round pick, and developmental 5.0 spec for a 31 yr old pitcher with a career 3.6 era is winning a deal vs a new GM then so be it... but its not collusion/destroying the league

Too busy to respond right now.