Discussion about Tanking

[realmofotalk]

This discussion has taken itself too seriously that it's become hilarious to me. HAMG!! I order you to turn the team around or you're fired!!

Not to play devil's advocate, but the only issue I could pile on is not filling out the roster. It's still a zero-sum game, people. With perennial winners, come perennial losers be it prospects failing, revenue imbalance, or just mistakes in general.

[OrioleMagic]

Ohh and I'm not even on pace to have a top 3 pick this year...

What does that have to do with anything? A top 10 pick is still valuable! After the last five years... of the same partially filled out rosters, these excuses have no credibility.

This discussion has taken itself too seriously that it's become hilarious to me. HAMG!! I order you to turn the team around or you're fired!!

Not to play devil's advocate, but the only issue I could pile on is not filling out the roster. It's still a zero-sum game, people. With perennial winners, come perennial losers be it prospects failing, revenue imbalance, or just mistakes in general.

Not filling out his roster is the really the only thing that is being asked to be corrected in this thread.

If he fills out his MLB roster, he won't hear anything from me.

About the only other issue I get pissed with other GMs about is how they manage their minors. Some guys have good prospects sitting on the bench in the minor leagues because they don't clean out the crap. I hate trading for a player who has been on the teams roster for several years but has only a few games per year playing time.

[cjkalt]

What does that have to do with anything? A top 10 pick is still valuable! After the last five years... of the same partially filled out rosters, these excuses have no credibility.

Not filling out his roster is the really the only thing that is being asked to be corrected in this thread.

If he fills out his MLB roster, he won't hear anything from me.

I definitely had full rosters the last 2 years... but the only thing I've taken responsibility for is not having a full roster and thaty'll be resolved this system, and if the league wants to warn/punish me for that fine

But being bad isn't punishable

[HafDawg2003]

If you aren't trying to be competitive not only by fielding a complete roster, but also by being active in free agency, you'll never win.

If you tank and don't even try to sign players in FA, they won't like your organization.

Thats why I signed a number of free agents this offseason, even knowing I'd be horrid. 1) If they perform well near the deadline, I can trade them for some kind of spec and 2) I want to win just enough games that bigger FAs will at least listen to my offer NEXT offseason.

You fail to do this, I don't care how good your minors are, you'll never win.

[General]

2) Why don't you learn how to manage the salary implications of one of your teams before you hop on the hating bandwagon... like its really easy when your the 12th person to pile on...

I'm guessing you're taking a jab at my HSL team? I won 2 WS there...note the "NONE" under "World Series" in your rather poorly-executed signature chart.

[OrioleMagic]

I definitely had full rosters the last 2 years... but the only thing I've taken responsibility for is not having a full roster and thaty'll be resolved this system, and if the league wants to warn/punish me for that fine

But being bad isn't punishable

No one is arguing about being bad as long as it is not intentional to the point of "tanking". When you don't fill out a roster, that is a very blatant action that says you are tanking. As for your stating that you had full rosters the past two years... I say bull shit! I was bothered by you getting the first pick of this June's draft after last season. Turns out, you never showed up for the draft and it didn't matter anyway, but...

[Slyder]

Eventually you have to move from just trying to acquire prospects to building a team. I understand every gm basically wants to firesale anything not bolted down (heck Ive done that in more than one league) when they start but you can't just constantly wait for the kids to develop because the drafts are not deep enough to be the only factor.

I could go through to first run of the Twins but I dont think any of those players are still in the system. Looking specifically at my team (I know them best and I am sure anyone else could use their team for examples)

Guys I specifically drafted:
Dexter
Lizardo
Maselli
St. John

Others drafted by comp:
Boehme 10th round 2024
Fiore 3rd round 2030
Guthridge 2nd round 2029 (subsequently traded pending approval)
Hernandez 3rd round 2039
Omara 7th round 2024

Thats 9 guys drafted by my team on the roster the rest were acquired via free agency and trades. You can find some nice core guys via drafts but I don't think you can solely rely on those types and expect to have any prolonged success.

[cjkalt]

Not disagreeing... but you got 4 key guys you drafted to build around... this is the 1st year I got specs up to the MLB level, and i bought Yacquet in FA... i'm starting the process... going to take another 2-3 years

[Providence A's]

Don't forget, Slyder has a human created stud as well. So does Pitt. That makes competing a hell of a lot easier and harder for those who joined after the fact. Those players are only 25/26 and aren't going anywhere. Was CJ tanking? Sure. Would it have mattered? No. I've been going at it since I joined and don't even have a playoff appearance. I won 96 games in 2031 and finished in 3rd! I won 91 in another and missed the playoffs, too. I'm on pace for over 90 wins this season and I'm in 3rd place. What's the point? I'm not going to tank because it doesn't matter what I do. Tank or no tank, CJ and I are not making the playoffs.

[Slyder]

I wish there was someway to show the start of the first run via trades. Finished 3rd in 2013 and made like 2-3 key trades at the deadline including PJ Bevis who spent time as everything.

[Kingdom]

Between 1989 and when I took over Boston in this league, they only had one winning season.. and that was only 85 wins. They were a very neglected franchise that was stuck with bad contracts (McGwire, some overrated SP) and someone had traded with the computer and gotten Thome for pennies. It took me only one season to put them over .500, and since 2000, I've been in the playoffs or had a winning record. And it doesn't bother me if I win 90 or more and finish with the wild card or don't make the playoffs at all. I'd rather be that, than 62-100. Sometimes you have to be proactive, rather than sit on things they may never develop or sit on the same trade block hoping someone finally wants that player. And sure, PA can talk about the created players all he wants, but both Slyder and I had won before we got lucky in getting those individuals. I'm far from not being ashamed by having The Mustache, in fact, it joys me to see his record breaking ventures. I've even managed to rebuild multiple times since I have had Barbosa, due to financial constraints, and still manage. My team is far more than just one player. Orsini, Lor, Guiterrez, Barboza, Ledford, Heikichi, Bator, Takuma, Vecchio, Delossantos, Betancourt, Desrosiers and great players I had fairly recently like Krull, Soto, Bemudez, Matheson.. all came from trading, which you claim is impossible.

[Slyder]

Between 1989 and when I took over Boston in this league, they only had one winning season.. and that was only 85 wins. They were a very neglected franchise that was stuck with bad contracts (McGwire, some overrated SP) and someone had traded with the computer and gotten Thome for pennies. It took me only one season to put them over .500, and since 2000, I've been in the playoffs or had a winning record. And it doesn't bother me if I win 90 or more and finish with the wild card or don't make the playoffs at all. I'd rather be that, than 62-100. Sometimes you have to be proactive, rather than sit on things they may never develop or sit on the same trade block hoping someone finally wants that player. And sure, PA can talk about the created players all he wants, but both Slyder and I had won before we got lucky in getting those individuals. I'm far from not being ashamed by having The Mustache, in fact, it joys me to see his record breaking ventures. I've even managed to rebuild multiple times since I have had Barbosa, due to financial constraints, and still manage. My team is far more than just one player. Orsini, Lor, Guiterrez, Barboza, Ledford, Heikichi, Bator, Takuma, Vecchio, Delossantos, Betancourt, Desrosiers and great players I had fairly recently like Krull, Soto, Bemudez, Matheson.. all came from trading, which you claim is impossible.

Very well said KoZ. I couldn't have said it better myself. I took over a team that had almost 80 mil in losses the previous 5 seasons and made every trade on every player even if it was just a 1.0 spect just to try and get back in the black. The Twins first winning season in the league was 2014, they set a new record for wins with 80 in 2013 (finished 4th).

[OrioleMagic]

Thome was trade for pennies??? Maybe quarters, (alot of quarters!) but not pennies.

[Providence A's]

Are you referring to me or CJ in regards to trading being impossible? Regardless, I find it much more difficult in this league than any other league I've been in. The same groups of people trade with each other and others are on the outside looking in. Yes, I've been looking for a 3B that apparently doesn't exist...but I've also had my top players available with no specific demands and didn't get any bites. The times I've tried to be proactive with it have resulted in "specs, specs, specs!!!" for old players and old players for my younger, better players. That's fine. I've done what I can from FA.

As far as the human created studs, I didn't say that's the only reason you two have won (6 straight division titles for MIN and 7 out of 8 for PIT). I said it makes it harder for others to overcome that. I never said I'd rather have 60 wins than 90 either. My point was it's frustrating to do all you can do within the structure of the league and get nothing out of it season after season. The bottom line is CJ wouldn't have done much regardless of how he ran his team. Yes, tanking to get the top pick blows...someone has to get it though. And it still hasn't gotten him anywhere.

[cjkalt]

OM you are one of the few GM's that has trouble dealing with me, I have no problems with 95% of the GM's that approach me so i know you got this longstanding opinion I'm unworkable but I trade with Slyder, Porter, NYGF among others all the time and in fact u called me the "trade happy GM" so how am i impossible to work with?

That aside, I agree with a lot of what has been said, I apologize for not having a full bullpen but that wouldn't have changed anything... and Yes I could buy a 70 win team but that doesn't have long term value for many reasons which have been mentioned above. I tried to buy Yacquet and sell him at the deadline for 3 years now and have gotten 0 PM's...

Prospects in this league take longer to develop as well so the impacts of my drafting will start to be felt over the next couple years