Baker hopes to return to the dugout.

[McKain]

100 pitches is a pretty solid limit.

Pitchers these days are not pitchers of the old days. They can't handle as much stress on the arm as someone from the early 1900s could.

[padrefanforever]

I don't have issues with 100 pitch count games late in the year as the arm strength is built up........but kain is right........it's not the same world as it was for a pitcher even 20 years ago......guys don't throw nearly as much or as often, and their arm strength and conditioning suffers for it.......

This kid from Japan might be the exception to the rule.....I read that he pitched a 200 pitch 17 inning game, came on the next night to relieve, and started the 3rd day and threw another 100 pitches.......if the arm strength is there, I don't mind, but why push it when you don't need too........bullpens are evolving for this reason.....use them and preserve your horses until later in the year when they are better ready to go longer

[HollywoodLeo]

100 pitches is a pretty solid limit.

Pitchers these days are not pitchers of the old days. They can't handle as much stress on the arm as someone from the early 1900s could.

They didn't throw as many obscure pitches back then, which could account for it. (extra stress on the shoulder/elbow and what not)

[padrefanforever]

Cameron just won the GG............FYI all

[padrefanforever]

They didn't throw as many obscure pitches back then, which could account for it. (extra stress on the shoulder/elbow and what not)

While this is probably very true, and I'm not arguing......I think even a straight power pitcher who tosses a fastball and cutter wouldn't be able to go 120+ very often before breaking down these days

[McKain]

They didn't throw as many obscure pitches back then, which could account for it. (extra stress on the shoulder/elbow and what not)

Yeah, that's one of the main factors for sure.

The simple fact is, pitchers today need to be babied because they can have some big problems handling even 100 pitches every 5 days.

[OBBoltsFan]

We didn't drop Boch.......lol he had a year left, and could have been given an extension before the ASB next year for all we know.........SA doesn't just give out extensions.....Bochy left w/ a year left on his contract.....we did NOT drop him

Read between the lines, man; we clearly and brusquely "dropped" him. Yes, he technically could have stayed, but Alderson and even Moores+Towers let him know that it would probably be in hisebst interest to search elsewhere.

Oh, and I just wanted to let everyone know that after reading this Sullivan article http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...2sullivan.html , I really am leaning towards wanting Baker as our manager. The guy has had a terrific career, brought the Cubs franchise from the cellar to what should have been the world series had it not been for that fan, and is obviously VERY HUNGRY for a championship.

On top of that, perhaps most importantly, he sounds as if he actually WANTS to be our manager very badly.

Bring on the Bake.

[OBBoltsFan]

Dusty Baker definitely abused starters - he's the reason Livan Hernandez isn't going to have a career beyond age 32.

Checking out Baseball Prospectus, and their Pitcher Abuse Points stat, which basically weighs how many pitches thrown over 100 a guy gets...
In 2006, the #2 pitcher in the league was Carlos Zambrano.
In 2005, the #2 pitcher was Zambrano, #3 was Prior.
In 2004, the #3 was Zambrano, Kerry Wood was #16.
In 2003, the #2 was Wood, Prior was #4, #11 was Zambrano.
In 2002, the #2 was Livan, #4 was Russ Ortiz, #15 was Jason Schmidt.
In 2001, the #3 was Livan, #28 was Ortiz.
In 2000, the #2 was Livan.
In 1999, Livan was #2 (he pitched 63.2 innings under Baker, and STILL was this high, but I'm unsure if it's counting his 160~ IP with FLA), Ortiz was #3, Shawn Estes was #26.
In 1997, Estes was #19. Mark Gardner was #15. Wilson Alvarez was #21.

In 1998, 1996, 1995, 1994, and 1993 Dusty had no starters ranked in the top 30 in the league in PAPs. Way to go, Dusty.

Baker clearly abuses his pitcher more than most managers in the game, though it seems he grew into that rather than bursting into it right off the bat.

This a very stupid argument, considering Livan is the definitive workhorse of baseball and would continue to elad the leage in average pitches if he didn't suck anymore.

Does baker use his pitchers more than the average manager? Yes, these stats suggest so, but certainly no where near the claims that a lot of you are claiming, with words like "abusing his pitchers".

The real argument one could make from these stats and his career is that he has RIGHTFULLY and SMARTLY overused his pitchers, considering only Prior has had problems from it (Woods was always a wreck), and we can't even correctly or accurately place Prior's faults on Baker either.

[OBBoltsFan]

Dusty isn't going to manage for less than 1M either......which is what's being talked about here........Bochy make 1.9, they want to pay less........Baker isn't going to be less......This can't possibly be SA or KT's guy, it the antithesis

Bochy elaving was not about money, man, don't you get it? Bochy was no longer wanted, it's really that simple. Reread all the articles and quotes from Alderson and Towers and Moores and every person within ownership or management.

[OBBoltsFan]

You guys have really become pussies and I hope you know that. 100 pitches is a bullshit limit and since when is it bad to go over that? Remember when pitchers wanted to go 9 innings? Baker never had a problem with this until going to Chicago where Wood and Prior got hurt. Baker has always been known as player's manager. The only knock on him is that in the playoffs he ****s up like in 2002 and 2003. And are you guys really talking about Livan Hernadez in a SF uniform where he lead the league in losses? Yeah I hate to see what Baker would do to Peavy. Maybe get him 200+ innings for a change?
I don't see him managing in SD or anywhere else this year.

You heard it first, from an actual bonafide Gnats fan. Thank you, reef.

Again, out with the Boch, in with the Bake.

[realmofotalk]

In 1997, Estes was #19. Mark Gardner was #15. Wilson Alvarez was #21.

So having the #15 and #19 makes Dusty an abusive manager? By comparison, Lou Piniella had #1 Randy Johnson and #11 Jeff Fassero and Joe Torre had #13 David Cone and #18 David Wells. Wilson Alvarez came to San Francisco in a midseason trade. He was in the top 15 in PAP during his previous two full years with the Chicago White Sox, whose other pitchers Jaime Navarro and James Baldwin made the top 25 in 1997.

For 1998, I got nothing.

That's too bad that you couldn't use Livan's career high 908,677 Total Pitcher Abuse Points.

In 1999, Livan was #2 (he pitched 63.2 innings under Baker, and STILL was this high, but I'm unsure if it's counting his 160~ IP with FLA), Ortiz was #3, Shawn Estes was #26.

As for Livan, see above. I'd guess Florida had just a little something to do with him being #2. Was Estes being #26 a big deal if Blake Stein was #25? I agree that Dusty managed Ortiz terribly. You'd hate to see Ortiz become damaged goods for the next team that gets him. :sarcasm:

In 2000, the #2 was Livan.

So Dusty's only pitcher who made the top 30 list had been "abused" everywhere he has pitched.

In 2001, the #3 was Livan, #28 was Ortiz.

If Dusty keeps this up, Livan and Ortiz won't be making anywhere on the list because their arms will be screwed up.

In 2002, the #2 was Livan, #4 was Russ Ortiz,

Nevermind.

#15 was Jason Schmidt.

And Jason Schmidt's rank in Total PAP has increased ever since Dusty left the Giants.

In 2003, the #2 was Wood, Prior was #4, #11 was Zambrano.

Aka Dusty's biggest year of abusing his starting pitchers. Funny that people weren't *****ing about his manhandling of his pitching staff until the Bartman incident, when Dusty was ripped for not having gone to his bullpen earlier. By the way, who was #8 on the list? Russ Ortiz of the Atlanta Braves.

In 2004, the #3 was Zambrano, Kerry Wood was #16.

Who was #6? Russ Ortiz, again. Either that is Bobby Cox's fault or maybe Russ Ortiz really was a prototypical workhorse. Either way, Ortiz was more abused than Wood, yet Cox didn't receive anywhere near the criticism that Dusty did because Dusty is supposed to handle Wood differently. I don't want to imply Wood is fragile, but..

In 2005, the #2 pitcher was Zambrano, #3 was Prior.

No argument against Baseball Prospectus here, although it's puzzling why Barry Zito averaged a slighty more number of pitches than both Zambrano and Prior, yet Zito's average abuse points per game started is significantly lower.

In 2006, the #2 pitcher in the league was Carlos Zambrano.

This is a bad sign. If Zambrano keeps placing #2 and #3 on the list, he could be the next Livan Hernandez. Oh, the horror!

[OBBoltsFan]

So having the #15 and #19 makes Dusty an abusive manager? By comparison, Lou Piniella had #1 Randy Johnson and #11 Jeff Fassero and Joe Torre had #13 David Cone and #18 David Wells. Wilson Alvarez came to San Francisco in a midseason trade. He was in the top 15 in PAP during his previous two full years with the Chicago White Sox, whose other pitchers Jaime Navarro and James Baldwin made the top 25 in 1997.


That's too bad that you couldn't use Livan's career high 908,677 Total Pitcher Abuse Points.


As for Livan, see above. I'd guess Florida had just a little something to do with him being #2. Was Estes being #26 a big deal if Blake Stein was #25? I agree that Dusty managed Ortiz terribly. You'd hate to see Ortiz become damaged goods for the next team that gets him. :sarcasm:


So Dusty's only pitcher who made the top 30 list had been "abused" everywhere he has pitched.


If Dusty keeps this up, Livan and Ortiz won't be making anywhere on the list because their arms will be screwed up.


Nevermind.
And Jason Schmidt's rank in Total PAP has increased ever since Dusty left the Giants.


Aka Dusty's biggest year of abusing his starting pitchers. Funny that people weren't *****ing about his manhandling of his pitching staff until the Bartman incident, when Dusty was ripped for not having gone to his bullpen earlier. By the way, who was #8 on the list? Russ Ortiz of the Atlanta Braves.


Who was #6? Russ Ortiz, again. Either that is Bobby Cox's fault or maybe Russ Ortiz really was a prototypical workhorse. Either way, Ortiz was more abused than Wood, yet Cox didn't receive anywhere near the criticism that Dusty did because Dusty is supposed to handle Wood differently. I don't want to imply Wood is fragile, but..


No argument against Baseball Prospectus here, although it's puzzling why Barry Zito averaged a slighty more number of pitches than both Zambrano and Prior, yet Zito's average abuse points per game started is significantly lower.


This is a bad sign. If Zambrano keeps placing #2 and #3 on the list, he could be the next Livan Hernandez. Oh, the horror!

Easily the finest post I've read here at strike3 thus far. Mad kudos, sir.

[love_that_reefer]

100 pitches is a pretty solid limit.

Pitchers these days are not pitchers of the old days. They can't handle as much stress on the arm as someone from the early 1900s could.

Sure they could but then we started babying these guys and they turned into pussies. Not all pitchers are that way. It depends on the person. Minor league coaches have to take a lot of blame giving these guys limits instead of building their arms. Baker was/is not to blame for what happened to Prior or Wood or anyone else. Cameron just gave an endorsement for Baker.

[HollywoodLeo]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...1s4padres.html

“This is my opportunity to vouch for Dusty Baker,” an excited Cameron told San Diego reporters. “I'm vouching for him. I've always loved Dusty Baker, been a big Dusty Baker fan.”

Well, Baker has recieved Cameron's endorsement.

[padrefanforever]

Bochy elaving was not about money, man, don't you get it? Bochy was no longer wanted, it's really that simple. Reread all the articles and quotes from Alderson and Towers and Moores and every person within ownership or management.

Bochy leaving was all about money.......nothing more nothing less........he wanted the contract, SA wouldn't give him an extension yet, and SF tossed a multi-year deal making more than he would here......

Simple as that.......Bochy fled to our division rival for money......

Use your own logic and read between the contract lines