Good thing we didn't draft Jared Weaver!

[padrefanforever]

I played baseball with this kid. I watched my best friend hit a homerun off him and him strike out two of three plate appearences. Th kid was NEVER recruited for his hitting, and his pitching was god, but not great. His glove is amazing, I've witnessed that first hand, but that's about it.

I could've told you from day one that this would happen; I would've been excited that a guy I've played against was the first overall pick, but would've had serious doubts about his "career".

I don't remember saying he was a great "hitter" !! But copy / paste for me and I'll appologize for the misprint.......

I've watched Bush play a few times also......He was drafted for his glove, speed and arm....his bat wasn't bad for a kid, but needed work, and they were hoping that it would come around....not every big leaguer mashed in HS, and most develope or don't in college or on the farm..... the draft is a crap shoot, we took our shot with a much cheaper HS player who we KNEW would take longer than 2 years to develope. NOT one person with a brain expeceted to see Bush on the major league club yet.....none.....

Oh and he could still become a great hitter, his body is still growing because he's so young, and you just never know how that will work out....He could also just as easily never play at the MLB level.....

[OBBoltsFan]

I don't remember saying he was a great "hitter" !! But copy / paste for me and I'll appologize for the misprint.......

I've watched Bush play a few times also......He was drafted for his glove, speed and arm....his bat wasn't bad for a kid, but needed work, and they were hoping that it would come around....not every big leaguer mashed in HS, and most develope or don't in college or on the farm..... the draft is a crap shoot, we took our shot with a much cheaper HS player who we KNEW would take longer than 2 years to develope. NOT one person with a brain expeceted to see Bush on the major league club yet.....none.....

Oh and he could still become a great hitter, his body is still growing because he's so young, and you just never know how that will work out....He could also just as easily never play at the MLB level.....

Why so confrontational? I never even implied that you suggested he was drafted for his hitting, just stating the facts: he was not in the same range as other SSs such as Drew because of his lack of hitting.

The draft is a crapshoot, but in reality, there was some sure thing prospects in 2004's bunch. Weaver was the most talked about prospect in years, and we were even being mentioned to be so fortunate to draft him, but we didn't, and we should have. I know, other teams also passed on him, but they instead got other prospects while we wetn the cheap route and signed a hometown kid who should've been selected in the 10-20's as a hit or miss prospect.

It's the equivelance of if the Texans drafted Antonio Cromartie this year, though Cromartie is still a safer pick in comparisons to Bush I'd imagine (but the MLB draft is usually a crapshoot, I know, but this year was a bit different).

There are a few things I know, and a few things I'm sure of. I know this will not likely happen again, due to our vastly improved management. I I'm pretty sure Bush will never make it to the major leagues, and I've saved this assumption until now, often even sticking up for him at the UT boards. Al I'm saying is we screwed up, we screwed up big time. Bush's selection will go down as one of the biggest blunders in Padre history, which is an impressive list.

Time to move on; I'm sorry I even started this thread. Just kills me

[realmofotalk]

FYI, Cromartie wasn't a safe pick. He didn't play a single game last year.

But yes, the Padres front office decided to draft a prospect who didn't demand a big signing bonus like Drew, Weaver, Verlander, Niemann, and Humber.

[OBBoltsFan]

FYI, Cromartie wasn't a safe pick. He didn't play a single game last year.

That's why I was comparing him to Bush, obviously. Neither are safe picks.

[realmofotalk]

Oh, I thought you meant Reggie Bush.

[padrefanforever]

Why so confrontational? I never even implied that you suggested he was drafted for his hitting, just stating the facts: he was not in the same range as other SSs such as Drew because of his lack of hitting.

The draft is a crapshoot, but in reality, there was some sure thing prospects in 2004's bunch. Weaver was the most talked about prospect in years, and we were even being mentioned to be so fortunate to draft him, but we didn't, and we should have. I know, other teams also passed on him, but they instead got other prospects while we wetn the cheap route and signed a hometown kid who should've been selected in the 10-20's as a hit or miss prospect.

It's the equivelance of if the Texans drafted Antonio Cromartie this year, though Cromartie is still a safer pick in comparisons to Bush I'd imagine (but the MLB draft is usually a crapshoot, I know, but this year was a bit different).

There are a few things I know, and a few things I'm sure of. I know this will not likely happen again, due to our vastly improved management. I I'm pretty sure Bush will never make it to the major leagues, and I've saved this assumption until now, often even sticking up for him at the UT boards. Al I'm saying is we screwed up, we screwed up big time. Bush's selection will go down as one of the biggest blunders in Padre history, which is an impressive list.

Time to move on; I'm sorry I even started this thread. Just kills me

... Th kid was NEVER recruited for his hitting, ...".

This was something you wrote in response to a post I had made.......this would be why I thought you were saying that.......I wasn't being confrontational.....lol.....I was responding which I'm allowed still....

"...biggest blunder in Padres history...." come on now......it's a draft......biggest blunder would be something like moving Ozzie Smith for Gary Templeton

[OBBoltsFan]

This was something you wrote in response to a post I had made.......this would be why I thought you were saying that.......I wasn't being confrontational.....lol.....I was responding which I'm allowed still....

"...biggest blunder in Padres history...." come on now......it's a draft......biggest blunder would be something like moving Ozzie Smith for Gary Templeton

It wasn't implying that you said he was recruited for hitting, just simply pointin out a big reason as to why he should not have been drafted so high.

And Ozzie Smith is the most overated player of all time. Do you know for players with at least 2000 career at bats, Ozzie is the SECOND least productive player at the plate of all time? That's right, Dave Hansen is Babe Ruth next to Ozzie. Perhaps I under estimate the value of a glove, but I would take Khalil right now over Ozzie in his prime and day of the week.

[HollywoodLeo]

still, it's hard to label something that is still 2 or 3 years away from being determined if it is even a blunder at all as the "biggest blunder in Padres history"

especially when you're talking about a history that includes trading Fred McGriff for Melvin Nieves.

[OBBoltsFan]

especially when you're talking about a history that includes trading Fred McGriff for Melvin Nieves.

Now that's more like it.

[padrefanforever]

It wasn't implying that you said he was recruited for hitting, just simply pointin out a big reason as to why he should not have been drafted so high.
And Ozzie Smith is the most overated player of all time. Do you know for players with at least 2000 career at bats, Ozzie is the SECOND least productive player at the plate of all time? That's right, Dave Hansen is Babe Ruth next to Ozzie. Perhaps I under estimate the value of a glove, but I would take Khalil right now over Ozzie in his prime and day of the week.

And Ozzie Smith is the most overated player of all time. Do you know for players with at least 2000 career at bats, Ozzie is the SECOND least productive player at the plate of all time? That's right, Dave Hansen is Babe Ruth next to Ozzie. Perhaps I under estimate the value of a glove, but I would take Khalil right now over Ozzie in his prime and day of the week.[/QUOTE]

Let me ask you this, since it sounds like you're pretty young....Do you remember the 70's and early 80's? Middle IFers back in the 70's and 80's were expected to do very different things than they are now. They weren't expected to produce for power, or OPS or any of these newer stats that rotogeeks have invented, and love to jam down our throats........ Your 2b and SS were smooth fielding first, get on base 2nd, steal bases 3rd, if they happened to hit for power, you were amazed. There was Ozzie & Trammel and really nobody else that excelled at that position that I can think of like they did. Of course there were other SS's that were good, but those guys were great, the best of the best, and nobody played SS like Ozzie Smith. If you never got to see him play, then you really don't have what it takes to debate this any further. I'm not interested in someone that saw highlights, or watched film, or is trying to compare yesteryear to now. It's far from the same game that it was even 20 years ago.... Cal Ripken was another great, but for other reasons....and IMO he kind of ushered in the new era of SS's, little more bat, while having a good glove, but he was not going to steal any bases for you. Much different style of play.

You are right about one thing........I agree that Greene is as close to Ozzie that has come along in a long long time. But where Ozzie lacked in power, he made up for in other areas such as stolen bases, bunting, etc.......but again, that was a very different time and game.....

Careful not to base your entire knowledge of the game on stats alone, they don't tell the whole story, and in many cases not nearly enough of the story.

[padrefanforever]

Oh and by the way.......Ozzie Smith was built for a place like Petco......

[OBBoltsFan]

And Ozzie Smith is the most overated player of all time. Do you know for players with at least 2000 career at bats, Ozzie is the SECOND least productive player at the plate of all time? That's right, Dave Hansen is Babe Ruth next to Ozzie. Perhaps I under estimate the value of a glove, but I would take Khalil right now over Ozzie in his prime and day of the week.

Let me ask you this, since it sounds like you're pretty young....Do you remember the 70's and early 80's? Middle IFers back in the 70's and 80's were expected to do very different things than they are now. They weren't expected to produce for power, or OPS or any of these newer stats that rotogeeks have invented, and love to jam down our throats........ Your 2b and SS were smooth fielding first, get on base 2nd, steal bases 3rd, if they happened to hit for power, you were amazed. There was Ozzie & Trammel and really nobody else that excelled at that position that I can think of like they did. Of course there were other SS's that were good, but those guys were great, the best of the best, and nobody played SS like Ozzie Smith. If you never got to see him play, then you really don't have what it takes to debate this any further. I'm not interested in someone that saw highlights, or watched film, or is trying to compare yesteryear to now. It's far from the same game that it was even 20 years ago.... Cal Ripken was another great, but for other reasons....and IMO he kind of ushered in the new era of SS's, little more bat, while having a good glove, but he was not going to steal any bases for you. Much different style of play.

You are right about one thing........I agree that Greene is as close to Ozzie that has come along in a long long time. But where Ozzie lacked in power, he made up for in other areas such as stolen bases, bunting, etc.......but again, that was a very different time and game.....

Careful not to base your entire knowledge of the game on stats alone, they don't tell the whole story, and in many cases not nearly enough of the story.[/quote]

My case is that even for players of his time, when they weren't expected to put up decent numbers, Ozzie was still yards behind his fellow competition.

Just think about that: in a total mass of run scored to produced, a created stat to tell just how much one player contributes to an offense, Ozzie had the 2ND lowest of all time... now just for modern times, but for any time and any player that was no expected to put up good numbers.

Perhaps I am greatly missing the values of solid defense, but even his lifetime fielding percentage of .975 or so is not that incredible. He was an amazing athlete, acrobatic and sound, but I'll never see him as even an all star calibur player in my eyes (as crazy as that sounds to even myself, I'm just really not all that impressed / wasn't when e was playing either).

[padrefanforever]

OK.....

Decent #'s........for a SS.........in the 70's and 80's ........lol you're talking about something like .270 / 7 / 60.........SS's weren't known for hitting yet....that was not what they were expected to do much of.......

As far as his lifetime fielding pct. he got to balls that nobody else could even think about getting to, this alone gave him more opportunities for errors. As I said, if you didn't see him play you don't really know how great he was. You can't live your baseball life via stats.......They DO NOT tell the whole story

-NL record for fielding percentage in a year, .987 (1987 & 1991)
-NL record for least errors in one year, 8. (1991)
-NL record for games played at shortstop in a career, over 2,500. (broken in 1993)
-2nd to Luis Aparicio for most games played at shortstop in a ML career.
-NL record for most years leading the league in fielding percentage, 7.
-ML record for most Assists in a season, 621 in 1980.
-ML record for Assists in a career, over 8300. (broken in 1993)
-ML record for Double Plays in a career, over 1560. (broken in 1995)
-NL record for 500 assists seasons with 8.
-Tied Honus Wagner with 16 consecutive 20-steal seasons.
-13 consecutive Gold Gloves awards, from 1980 to 1992.
-Voted MVP in 1985 NLCS.
-Runner-up for NL MVP in 1987, setting career highs in batting avg. (.303), RBIs (75), Runs (104), and hits (182).
-Selected to the NL All-Star team 15 times.
-In 1989, Sports Illustrated names Ozzie, the "Shortstop of the Decade."
-Collected 110 sacrifice hits during the 1980s. More than any other player.

Baseball is a great game because of the intangibles the "x" factor, and stats do not account for those......so if you're going to base everything on stats.......just play nintendo since that's all a video game is based on.

[HollywoodLeo]

Perhaps I am greatly missing the values of solid defense, but even his lifetime fielding percentage of .975 or so is not that incredible. He was an amazing athlete, acrobatic and sound, but I'll never see him as even an all star calibur player in my eyes (as crazy as that sounds to even myself, I'm just really not all that impressed / wasn't when e was playing either).

Yet you use Ozzie as the measuring stick to talk up Khalil.

Are you not that impressed with Khalil?

[padrefanforever]

touche.......lol