The Cream of the Crop: Top Five Catcher Edition

[Providence A's]

Kendall isn't a very good hitter anymore, isn't a speed threat, has no power, and is useless at throwing out baserunners.

Kendall has more hits than all of the catchers in your list. He is tied with I-Rod for the most stolen bases. Yes, he doesn't hit homers, but has 20 doubles. Kendall has thrown out more runners than Varitek, is tied with I-Rod and Lopez for the highest fielding percentage, and his range factor is higher than anyone in your list except Barrett.

Lo Duca's about as good defensively as Martinez, Barrett, and Varitek, but his offense pales in comparison.

Lo Duca has the highest batting average out of all the catchers. He has more RBIs than LaRue and I-Rod. He has more hits than Varitek, LaRue, and Barrett.

Lopez is a good power hitter, but he can't walk and he's not good defensively, and he's been dropping off the past few years.

Lopez is tied for the highest fielding percentage and has the 2nd highest range factor behind Barrett. I-Rod has less walks than Lopez.

Schneider is up on the list and is a pretty good both offensively and defensively, but he's not quite as good as the rest of the people on the list.

He could replace LaRue as they are similar with Scheineder having a higher batting average, more hits, more games played, and more runners caught stealing.



It just seems to me that you threw LaRue on there because he is a Red. His defensive stats are on par, but he's played in significantly less games than everyone except Lopez who missed 6 - 8 weeks. He's played in 84 games and everyone else has played at least 95, 6 of the remaining 8 have played in over 100 games...point is his defensive stats might not be as good if he played more games since the catching position is the most physically demanding position on the field as there is a lot of wear and tear.

Offensively, he has the least hits, the least runs, the 2nd lowest batting average (behind Kendall), tied with Martinez for last in triples with 0 (everyone else has at least 1 since you brought up speed ), 0 stolen bases, has the 2nd most strikeouts (behind Varitek who has more ABs) and has the 2nd lowest # of ABs (behind Lopez) meaning he strikeouts at a higher rate than all of the catchers here, and the 2nd lowest # of total bases (behind Lopez). IMHO, Mauer or any of the catchers I presented should be ahead of your homer pick of Jason LaRue.

[Saber]

Catchers by VORP and EQA
1. Jason Varitek-43.5-.316
2. Joe Mauer-38.1-.302
3. Victor Martinez-32.9-.288
4. Michael Barrett-30.2-.287
5. Jason Larue-26-.287
6. Ben Molina-25.1-.293
7. Paul Lo Duca-24.5-.274
8. Brian Schneider-24-.281
9. Ivan Rodriguez-23.6-.269
10. Mike Piazza-21.1-.264

Jason Kendall is in 23rd place with 9.5 VORP, in large part because he sucks. Javy Lopez has been hurt a lot of the year. Everyone forgets the West Coast catcher.

[Geki Ace]

Kendall has more hits than all of the catchers in your list. He is tied with I-Rod for the most stolen bases. Yes, he doesn't hit homers, but has 20 doubles. Kendall has thrown out more runners than Varitek, is tied with I-Rod and Lopez for the highest fielding percentage, and his range factor is higher than anyone in your list except Barrett.

Kendall's batting leadoff while most of the rest of the guys on the list are hitting 6th or later. 20 doubles isn't very much, and Kendall's SLG is pathetic. He's thrown out more baserunners because everytime a guy gets on first he tries to steal because he's got over an 80% chance of being safe. Fielding percentage is a useless stat and range factor doesn't show much for catchers. Kendall isn't even close to being in the top-10. I'd take the five on my list, Mauer, Schneider, Molina, other Molina, Matheny, Posada, Miller, Hernandez, and Pierzynski over Kendall, and probably just about any other competent catcher as well. A singles-hitting catcher with an awful arm and massive contract isn't someone I'd want on my team. In fact, that's not someone I want getting 450 at-bats, either.

Lo Duca has the highest batting average out of all the catchers. He has more RBIs than LaRue and I-Rod. He has more hits than Varitek, LaRue, and Barrett.

Yet Lo Duca doesn't walk all that often, you're using RBIs to determine a player's value, you're using mass stats which come from more at-bats, and Lo Duca has NO POWER. Unless he puts up an OBP over .400, he's not getting on the list by slugging .399.

Lopez is tied for the highest fielding percentage and has the 2nd highest range factor behind Barrett. I-Rod has less walks than Lopez.

You're not using good fielding stats for catchers, once again. And Pudge probably has less walks than Jose Reyes and Wily Mo Pena at this point, which I consider to be an embarassing accomplishment.

He could replace LaRue as they are similar with Scheineder having a higher batting average, more hits, more games played, and more runners caught stealing.

You're just using mass stats again. LaRue and Schneider are similar, but I gave LaRue the edge because he has more power.

It just seems to me that you threw LaRue on there because he is a Red. His defensive stats are on par, but he's played in significantly less games than everyone except Lopez who missed 6 - 8 weeks. He's played in 84 games and everyone else has played at least 95, 6 of the remaining 8 have played in over 100 games...point is his defensive stats might not be as good if he played more games since the catching position is the most physically demanding position on the field as there is a lot of wear and tear.

I threw LaRue in there because unlike most catchers who are very good offensively, he's also capable of throwing out baserunners at a pretty high rate. I find it amazing that LaRue has put up similar numbers in less games played, and if you're going to hold it against him for having an excellent back-up, then you're even worse at arguing than I thought.

Offensively, he has the least hits, the least runs, the 2nd lowest batting average (behind Kendall), tied with Martinez for last in triples with 0 (everyone else has at least 1), 0 stolen bases, has the 2nd most strikeouts (behind Varitek who has more ABs) and has the 2nd lowest # of ABs (behind Lopez) meaning he strikeouts at a higher rate than all of the catchers here, and the 2nd lowest # of total bases (behind Lopez). IMHO, Mauer or any of the catchers I presented should be ahead of your homer pick of Jason LaRue.

MASS STATISTICS ARE NOT GOOD. RATE STATISTICS ARE GOOD. You brought up BA, which is useless compared to OBP, triples when we're talking about catchers, and then you brought up strikeouts. Neutral. Out. NEUTRAL. OUT. Say it with me now. Neutral out. Neutral out. No worse than a pop-up in the infield, no better than a groundout to the 3rd baseman, unless there's a guy on 1st. LaRue walks at a higher rate than everyone on the list except Varitek, which is far more important than how often he strikes out. His OBP is second being Varitek among people on the list, his SLG is a few points behind Pudge for 3rd, and his OPS is 3rd among people on the list. Mauer's the only other person that compares to LaRue in those categories, and he's not on it because it's his first full year, like I said. Call me a homer all you want, but the stats show that LaRue should be on the list.

[Saber]

Hey, I gave you rate and counting stats.

[Geki Ace]

And did you notice I wasn't talking to you? I've already addressed Mauer, multiple times.

[Providence A's]

Throwing out runners is not all on the catcher. If a pitcher can hold a runner close, then it doesn't matter who's pitching. IIRC Haren had 6 guys steal bases off him in 1 game because he wasn't even giving the catcher a chance by not holding runners close, so that is a misleading stat.

Sorry, the bottom line is LaRue is not a top 5 catcher in MLB unless you're a Reds fan. And I'm willing to bet that in almost everyone of these subsequent "articles" that there will be a Red listed

[Geki Ace]

Actually, I already have my lists made up for the other positions, and yes, there are four more Reds. I have Felipe Lopez as a top-five SS, Adam Dunn as a top-five LF, Ken Griffey, Jr. as a top-five CF, and Ryan Freel as a top-five utility man. Would you really like to try and argue these points with me? I've got 7 other positions without a Reds player in sight.

Quite simply, Jason Kendall is an awful player anymore. He's a singles hitter without much speed, a catcher with absolutely no arm, and now that he can't even put up a good average or lace doubles into the gap, he probably shouldn't be starting. Look at the stats and you'll see LaRue deserves to be on the list. Mauer's the only one with an argument, and I gave the edge to LaRue because Mauer's in his first full year. I used trends in part to determine the list, and while Jason Kendall is clearly on his way down, LaRue seems to be on his way up. Kendall struggles to be a top-15 catcher anymore, and there's no way he's getting anywhere near this list. By the way, there are Athletics on 5 of the remaining 17 lists I'm going to do, so there'll be plenty more chances for you to make your case for undeserving players.

[Saber]

Hey, I tried to help you out, but screw that.

Joe Mauer rules and Larue sucks.

[Geki Ace]

Good for Joe Mauer.

[Providence A's]

I don't understand why you keep singling out Kendall as I said any of those catchers. I'm not a big Kendall fan and don't understand why the A's traded for him with his huge contract other than to get rid of 2 other huge contracts. You said he couldn't hit, but yet he has the most hits if that makes any sense.

I'd have to see the lists before I could really "argue", but...

-Dunn is the only one that should probably be on any list.
-Lopez is having a career year after 4 incomplete seasons, which is funny you would put him on there when you said you left Mauer off because it's his first complete season. Yet this is Lopez's first complete season. hmmmm...
-Griffey is having a nice come back year, but I don't think he's in the top 5 anymore.
-Freel has a slugging percentage less than .400, which was your magic number. Again, hmmmm... Other than stolen bases and the ability to play more than 1 position, he's nothing special...

but again, I'd have to know who else is and isn't on the list.



and lastly, you keep saying a strikeout is the same as any out blah blah blah...you miss the point (as that isn't really the main point). The point is you can't get a hit if you don't hit the ball. At least if you hit it, there is a greater chance of you getting on base than the catcher missing strike 3 and you running to 1st before the throw.

[Geki Ace]

You're the one who keeps bringing up Kendall, not me. In case you didn't notice, the SS class in baseball isn't very strong, and I gave Lopez the edge over a bunch of NL East shortstops who can't get on base. Griffey, when healthy, is unquestionably a top-five centerfielder, and arguing that would be stupid after what he's done this season. Freel's a utility guy getting put on a list of utility players. That's another class that's not that strong, and Freel's certainly deserving of being on that list. Did the fact that I'm a Reds fan make me look at LaRue a bit more in depth than most other players? Yes. After looking at some of Mauer's numbers a bit more in-depth, I'd have to seriously consider putting him on the list over LaRue, but I'm not changing it now and I stand by my decision. Questioning my integrity because you don't agree with my decision is childish and stupid, and I'm not going to sit there and take it. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't resort to namecalling.

[CincyRedsFan30]

As Geki said...the SS list has a lot of weak players on it, so Lopez is going to be on it just for what he's done this year. I don't think some realize how well he's played for a SS this year.

Griffey has an OPS over .900, so he definitely should be on a top 5 list.

Freel is a utility player and slugging isn't a big thing for a utility player. He is one of the best in the league at getting on base though, and that is huge for the top of a lineup. The positional numbers and skill sets individual players bring are often very important when it comes to saying how good one is.

[Providence A's]

Questioning my integrity because you don't agree with my decision is childish and stupid, and I'm not going to sit there and take it. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't resort to namecalling.

When did I call anyone names? You just said I was childish and stupid, so who's insulting who now? I said LaRue was a homer pick. I didn't say you were a homer and I didn't insult you like you also tried to do with this comment by implying no A's deserve to be on your "list":

By the way, there are Athletics on 5 of the remaining 17 lists I'm going to do, so there'll be plenty more chances for you to make your case for undeserving players.

I never said OMG, why are there no A's on the list?? OMG! And I could care less if any of them made your list based on opinion. The only one who is probably deserving would be Chavez and it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't make it.

[Geki Ace]

Sorry, the bottom line is LaRue is not a top 5 catcher in MLB unless you're a Reds fan. And I'm willing to bet that in almost everyone of these subsequent "articles" that there will be a Red listed

I consider that questioning my journalistic integrity rather unnecessarily. You got extremely defensive of Kendall after I shot you down a few times, and with all your accusations of me being a homer, I'm sure you are as well.

[Providence A's]

I defended multiple catchers and picked on multiple catchers. I only defended Kendall when you singled him out and ignored the rest.

You shot yourself in the foot about your integrity. You admitted that you looked at LaRue more because he was a Red instead of Mauer who is not a Red. That's called being biased.