NL Cy Young: Is it really even a question who is the leading candidate?

[CrazyEights]

He can go the whole way get 2 ERs and his ERA would still go up. You can expect stuff like that.

That was my point when this discussion first started. Clemens' ERA was so low that it would be very difficult to keep it that low. The whole arguement for Clemens winning the CY Young was his low ERA. Without that, Carpenter is the hands down winner. So if Clemens' ERA goes up (as it has been), he loses any claim that he has to the CY Young award. Clemens must pitch 6 or 7 scoreless innnings every game to lower or keep his ERA where it is. Carpenter has been consistantly going 8 or 9 innings giving up 2 runs or fewer. CY Young Awards weren't awarded in August (or whenever Clemens' ERA was at it's lowest)... they're handed out after all the games have been played.

[DirtyKash]

Well well, Carpenter has not looked solid his last two starts and Roger Clemens doesn't have enough wins. Could Dontrelle Willis be back in the Cy Young race? I think so!

[HollywoodLeo]

Carpenter keeps winning games for his team.

Yeah, and Albert Puljos, Jim Edmonds, David Eckstein, and company have nothing to do with it. It's all Carpenter...

That said, I do think Carpenter deserves the Cy Young, but for more reasons than just his 21 wins.

[love_that_reefer]

With Carpenter's ERA, why would it take all those guys to win these ballgames. That is just such a dumb comment to make. Three runs is just about all he needs to get the win. Is that a lot?

[HollywoodLeo]

With Carpenter's ERA, why would it take all those guys to win these ballgames. That is just such a dumb comment to make. Three runs is just about all he needs to get the win. Is that a lot?

Which is WHY I said he deserves it...but for more reasons than his Win-Loss record.

My statement was more of a testiment against putting as much weight on the win-loss record of a pitcher that most people do, and had nothing to do with Carpenter specifically.

The bottom line is, Carpenter stands a much better shot at having a better win-loss record than your average pitcher because of those guys.

HOWEVER he has proven to not neccesarily need them, as proven by other, more important (IMO) stats.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Clemens continues to have the most superior statistics.

He should win it...still.

[Providence A's]

Clemens continues to have the most superior statistics.

And what statistics are these? He leads Carpenter in ERA, earned runs (which are tied to ERA so that's double counting), hits given up (and BAA which is tied to hits given up, double counting again, but it's only a .011 difference anyway), WHIP (.03 difference), and slugging percentage (.6 difference).

Carpenter has more wins and less losses (better winning percentage), less walks, more k's, more innings pitched (CGs and SHOs).

The only major category Clemens is dominating is ERA. Carpenter has a significant lead over Clemens in wins, nearly half the losses as Clemens, 30 innings more than Clemens, 11 less walks in more innings, and 28 more k's.

I don't see how you can say Clemens has the most superior statistics when the only one that is significantly different that he leads in is ERA.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Clemens leads in the important statistics. Wins and Losses are team-dependent and show nothing about the pitcher.

[Providence A's]

Clemens leads in the important statistics.

The only stat he leads by a significant difference is ERA.

Wins and Losses are team-dependent and show nothing about the pitcher.

wow, you got me there

[HollywoodLeo]

Wins and Losses are team-dependent and show nothing about the pitcher.

As one of the loudest opponents of the win-loss stat and how much weight is put on it, I've got to say you're stretching it there.

Wheras the stat shouldn't have as much weight put on it that is, due to its team dependancy, it shouldn't exactly be blown off, especially when a pitcher is able to accumulate wins more often than not.

There comes a point when a pitcher has gotten so many wins that you've just got to assume he's been doing something right his whole career. This is why I believe 300 wins should be one of those automatic tickets to the HOF, even though i'm so loud in stating that the win/loss stat for pitchers is the most overated stat in sports.

If Carpenter had <150 Ks and a 3+ ERA, but still had the 21 wins, i'd say Clemens owns the Cy Young by a long shot. But the fact remains that, even though Clemens has a considerable lead in ERA (which can be team dependant as well, to a certain degree) any other lead he has isn't all that strong, and Carpenter has more K's (the least team dependant stat you can find) and a much better win-loss record..albeit an overated stat.

My main argument in favor of Carpenter is that his ERA is still real low (2.11 last I checked, IIRC. Someone feel free to correct me if i'm wrong..and I don't know how his last game went), He has what I assume to be a considerable lead in K's (I don't see Roger's name on the top 10 list..and don't have a good enough connection to bother oppening the entire stat list) more innings pitched, a great ERA for himself (albeit not as great as Roger's) and he has less walks (another stat that's definitely not team dependant)

It's close, closer than some others would say while focusing on those Win-Loss records, but it's still Carpenter's IMHO

[Providence A's]

Carpenter's ERA is up to 2.41 I believe, but that is the only category Clemens leads in that there is a huge difference. He leads in WHIP by only 0.03 and BAA by only .011. While Carpenter leads in the other stuff that I stated in one of my previous posts today.

[CincyRedsFan30]

ERA/WHIP show the most. Clemens leads in both right now. Pretty simple if you ask me.

Wins-Losses can often show how good a pitcher is too, but the fact is Clemens pitches with one of the worst offenses supporting him, while Carpenter has the 2nd best offense in the NL supporting him.

Some folks have to stop ignoring the facts. Eric Milton had 15 wins last year and is one of the worst pitchers in baseball this year because he has pitched so poorly. Milton had an ERA approaching 5 last year and won 15 games because the Phillies scored a lot of Runs in his starts. Run support is huge.

[love_that_reefer]

Pretty simple? That's laughable since his lead is microscopic. Carpenter has more wins, innings(leads the Majors), K/9 IP( if you want the microscopic) , less BB's, CG's and SHO's. So yeah it's not pretty simple.

[HollywoodLeo]

Cincy, simply having a great offense behind him shouldn't disqualify him for the Cy Young.

Sure, it helps. Sure, I agree with you that Win/Loss is overrated, but that doesn't mean you should automatically blow off any great pitcher that happens to pitch in front of that offense.

Roger leads in ERA and has a small lead in WHIP.

Carpenter leads in K's, SHOs, CGs, BBs...all things a pitcher has full or almost full control of. Yes, he happens to have more wins as well, but i'm arguing for Carpenter for more reasons than that.

If Clemens should have the Cy Young simply because he has a commanding lead in ERA then Jake Peavy should've been Cy Young last season.

[CincyRedsFan30]

ERA/WHIP show the most about a pitcher. I give it to Clemens because of that. Peavy should have won it last year.

CG are nice and all, but the fact that some hang their heads on "seven CG" or "three CG" doesn't make sense. Going 9 innings doesn't give one pitcher some huge advantage because they attained that "known" "CG win" threshold.

As for Carpenter having less BB than Clemens... that doesn't matter to me as Clemens' slightly lower WHIP(a small advantage but an advantage nonetheless) shows he has given up fewer Walks and Hits per innings pitched.