NL Cy Young: Is it really even a question who is the leading candidate?

[CincyRedsFan30]

The Astros bullpen isn't anything special besides Lidge. The Astros would have a better chance of winning a close game by keeping Clemens in the game unless he has run out of gas. I'd take a pitcher that is dominant for 8-9 innings over a pitcher that is only dominant for 6-7 innings anyday.

Blame his terrible Manager. I guarantee you there have been several times this year where he's been forced out because of a Manager who's chicken. And the fact that Lidge is so good just adds to the desire to take Clemens out of a game.

It's also much easier for a pitcher to pitch freely and throw strikes(record more Outs more quickly) when his team has a large lead, which is what the Cards often have when Carpenter starts. Clemens hasn't been afforded that luxury very often and has been forced to be more selective with the pitches he throws.

[Providence A's]

even when Clemens had the "luxury" in 2003 he still didn't have any CGs! And he was getting 7.5 runs then while Carpenter is getting 5 this year.

[CincyRedsFan30]

even when Clemens had the "luxury" in 2003 he still didn't have any CGs! And he was getting 7.5 runs then while Carpenter is getting 5 this year.

We're not talking about 2003...we're talking about this year. Deducing that he wouldn't have any CG with more support this year is pure conjecture and isn't based on a fact. He had 6 CG and 9 CG respectively in 1996 and 1997. That doesn't matter though.

I'm talking about this year's stats. as a separate entity.

[Providence A's]

He's had 1 CG in the last 6 years! That is a fact and he simply can't close the door.

[CrazyEights]

Some pitchers just can't last an entire game regardless of the manager. Clemens has recently proven to be one of those pitchers.

[Providence A's]

But you're talking about how Carpenter is getting CGs because he gets more runs. I'm showing you how more runs doesn't necessarily equal CGs. That's the point. I'm showing that Carpenter is getting CGs because he is pitching well regardless of the 5 runs a game he gets.

Here are his CGs:
Beat Cubs 4 - 0 (7 hits, 1 walk, 6 k's)
Beat Blue Jays 7 - 0 (1 hit, 1 walk ,10k's)
Beat Pirates 8 - 0 (4 hits, 0 walks, 11 k's)
Beats Astros and Clemens! 3 - 0 (3 hits, 0 walks, 9 k's)
Beat Marlins 3 - 1 (3 hits, 1 walk, 1 earned run, 6 k's)
Beat Cubs 5 - 2 (8 hits, 0 walks, 2 earned runs, 8 k's)

Only 2 games did the Cards win by more than 4 runs and those were both shutouts so it didn't matter how many runs they scored.

This adds another aspect, Carpenter beat Clemens in the only head 2 head matchup so far this year.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Worrying about him going one extra inning a few times a year really isn't a big issue. It's one of those things that deals with a matter of perception, kind of like the perception some have that a Strikeout is worse than other Outs when it really isn't. It might not look as good as other Outs, but it is no worse and in some cases, better(DP situation).

Clemens has the better overall numbers this year and that's what really matters. He has kept his team in games more often than Carpenter. Only two of Clemens' starts haven't been Quality Starts. He has thrown at least 6 innings in all but two starts this year. He has thrown 7 or more innings 19 times(3 of them have been 8 IP)

It's not like Clemens has thrown 5 innings a bunch of times.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Some pitchers just can't last an entire game regardless of the manager. Clemens has recently proven to be one of those pitchers.

It's a matter of perception. CG occur rarely enough for even those that have them the most that Clemens losing 6-10 or so IP on Carpenter over the course of a year because he doesn't have those CG really isn't something that can be documented as a largely meaningful stat. It does count for something, but it isn't a overly important stat. Clemens leads in the majority of the important statistical categories. That's the bottom line.

[CrazyEights]

Clemens has the better overall numbers this year and that's what really matters. He has kept his team in games more often than Carpenter. Only two of Clemens' starts haven't been Quality Starts.

How has Clemens kept his team in the game more often than Carpenter? Only 2 of Carpenter's starts haven't been quality starts as well. They both have an average game score of 66. If your team wins 6-0, then it doesn't matter how much run support you had, because only one run could have won that game for you.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Clemens leads the statistical battle in the majority of the categories that have proven through reserach who the best pitchers are.

[CrazyEights]

How has Clemens kept his team in the game more often than Carpenter?

[CincyRedsFan30]

He's posted better statistics. So, even though they both have only had two non-Quality Starts, Clemens gets the edge in almost all of the statistical categories, so he has done more to help his team.

[CrazyEights]

He's posted better statistics. So, even though they both have only had two non-Quality Starts, Clemens gets the edge in almost all of the statistical categories, so he has done more to help his team.

By looking at the standings, it doesn't seem like it's helped them that much. The Cardinals haven't lost a game that Carpenter started since 6/8, and they've only lost 4 games that he started all year. Now that's an important stat.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Eric Milton also had a lot of Wins with the Phillies last year. Wins often don't show anything about a pitcher's talent. It all comes down to luck and run support.

[CrazyEights]

Eric Milton also had a lot of Wins with the Phillies last year. Wins often don't show anything about a pitcher's talent. It all comes down to luck and run support.

Run support can be overstated, and I think it is in Carpenter's case. He can pitch a shutout (he's done a lot of that) and the Cardinals win by 10-0. Yeah, the Cardinals scored 10 runs for him, and that inflates his run support, but those 10 runs did little to win the game, because only 1 run would have been needed. I don't care much for win/loss records either, because it's a very misleading stat. However, both Carpenter and Clemens have the exact same average game score which says a lot about how equal the two pitchers are.