Making a case for the DF?

[missionhockey21]

Yes bogus stats because that's what they are. Defense cannot be measured in numbers but can help make some points along the way. The only way to measure it is by watching the games. Hell Arod might have better numbers than Eric Chavez but does that make him a better third baseman. Too many stats and stat junkies.

Well that's why getting bonafide fielding stats have been so hard (at least I presume) because a lot of it's subjective and just what you get from watching a game. But I appluad any effort made to even give a general idea of how effective a players defense is because we all can't watch every game.

But hey, different strokes for different folks, that's why this forum is great.

[love_that_reefer]

MLBtv is from heaven

[DirtyKash]

How does a guy like Orlando Hudson rate? I don't see him on your list; there's Utley, Roberts, Kent, Polanco, and Giles. Something's wrong. Give me Hudson easily over all those guys.

And what about ICHIRO?!?!? NO ICHIRO!?

[Wally Mo Pena]

The only way to measure it is by watching the games.

that's literally all ZR is, a bunch of people watching every play of every game and recording who gets to what. I can't do that, but i do like to know who plays good D and how much that's worth compared to their offense. That's all i was trying to do here, it's not about statistifying the game, it's about understanding it more when you can't watch every play.

Also, since +ZR seems to be the most controversial part of my method, i'll explain. Rocket Science it ain't.

I averaged the best ZRs for each position going back a decade or so. Then i added 10-20 pts to get it all but out of reach and make it a round number. That is all. I just didn't think it would be fair to compare people to a 100% ZR since no one can sustain that over a year.

[love_that_reefer]

ZR is only a small part of it though. So a player can get to a ball but does he have a strong enough arm to get a guy out? Things like this are just immeasurable.

[DirtyKash]

ZR is only a small part of it though. So a player can get to a ball but does he have a strong enough arm to get a guy out? Things like this are just immeasurable.

Not to mention how fast different players run from home plate to first base . . .

[redsrbetter]

You honestly think these guys don't want to get better fielding the ball anyway without these so called stats? That's just flat out ridiculous. Stats are just numbers and are no true way to evaluate anyone's talent. They are there for arguements sake. Too much stock in stats is not a good thing.

I believe every player wants to get better in the field. Yet they may not put enough concentration into it. Instead of shagging fly balls during bp before a game. I would take fielding practice before every game as well. Take infield practice and get the feel of throwing it over to 1B. I know they do the standard warm up before every inning, but I would do it before the game as well. I would practice my fielding after a game too. I would take pride in a 1.000 FP. I would strive for a gold glove. Something tells me that not every fielder feels this way about ther defense.

So do you think that FP is a stat that is not needed?

[Wally Mo Pena]

ZR is only a small part of it though. So a player can get to a ball but does he have a strong enough arm to get a guy out? Things like this are just immeasurable.

not immesurable, just too difficult to measure easily. Like i keep saying, this gives a pretty good idea of how someone's defense is impacting their team, but it doesn't cover everything. that's what color commentary is for, but at least this gets defense into the discussion, rather that just sort of shuffling it off to the realm of opinion.

You can imagine your favorite broadcaster saying something like "Ichiro's giving up .078 on his OPS this year in right, but he probably makes up for some of that with his strong throwing arm."

At least we're in a context there, instead of just guessing that ichiro is awsome because he gets out of the batter's box quickly.

Incidentally:

Hudson ZR .839, FP .991, OPS .727, rOPS .540
Ichiro ZR .869, FP .995, OPS .786, rOPS .708

[love_that_reefer]

I believe every player wants to get better in the field. Yet they may not put enough concentration into it. Instead of shagging fly balls during bp before a game. I would take fielding practice before every game as well. Take infield practice and get the feel of throwing it over to 1B. I know they do the standard warm up before every inning, but I would do it before the game as well. I would practice my fielding after a game too. I would take pride in a 1.000 FP. I would strive for a gold glove. Something tells me that not every fielder feels this way about ther defense.

So do you think that FP is a stat that is not needed?

Most players take infield and outfield before every game. They want to get the feel of a flyball against the backdrop and to get a feel for how the wind carries it. Players take infield to see if it's a fast or slow infield. These are professionals and they take their jobs seriously. Fielding percentage is ok but its not that great of telling you how good a player is. Arod had a better FP than Chavez last year but does that mean anything? No because Chavez is better and more experienced.

[Wally Mo Pena]

i did a quick check, and using my system, none of the other qualified players would have surpassed the ratedOPS leaders i originally posted. So by my calculations, the best team you could have put on the field overall last year would have been:

Derek Lee 1b
Chase Utley 2b
Johnny Peralta ss
Morgan Ensberg 3b
Jason Bay lf
Jim Edmonds cf
Vlad Guerrero rf

the only player i didn't review originally to make a run at the top was Furcal, who passed everyone but Peralta with a .596 ratedOPS

and let me add, just once more for the record, that on the original list, when two players are real close, there's certainly a margin of error, so the order isn't an eternal judgment or anything. In the same way that a guy batting .300 isn't really "worse" than a guy batting .301.

That said, everyone on this list had a pretty sizable lead over the competition, so i'd feel pretty good about putting them out on the field.

[Saber]

I always assumed that having a strong enough arm to throw a guy out was an assist.

[love_that_reefer]

I always assumed that having a strong enough arm to throw a guy out was an assist.

Missed the point by a mile as usual.

[Saber]

You miss the point that baseball is a series of events. These events can be measured. The debate now is about the effectiveness and predictive value of those measurements. If you don't like it, tough. There isn't a major league organization that doesn't look for better ways to analyse and understand the events that make up baseball.

Go bunt a runner over or something.

[love_that_reefer]

I am the only one that gets that baseball is a series and that you cannot try and pin a stat to them. Scouts aren't looking at ZF's when they go on scouting missions and if you honestly believe that then god help you.

And I will bunt a runner over and you know why, it works!

[Wally Mo Pena]

and if you believe that GMs only use scouting reports to judge players then you've officially smoked yourself retarded. Scouting and stats both have a place in evaluation. The only thing that doesn't have a place, in the end, is people like yourself who dismiss new ideas out of hand without taking the time to understand them. you are obsolete.