wins/losses (for pitchers)= most overated stat in sports

[love_that_reefer]

It depends on the game. If Pitcher A gives up all seven runs in the first inning then his team is going to be ****ed and out of it. Pitcher B gives up three runs in the first, the team has a better chance of coming through. Let's they they score three to tie it up and then go four innings of zeros then guive up more. He is still keeping them in the game and is not pitching the same damn game as Pitcher A. Go look at gamelogs! Does it change the fact that they had piss poor games, no but they kept their team in the ballgame to try and win it which is their whole job!

[HollywoodLeo]

It depends on the game. If Pitcher A gives up all seven runs in the first inning then his team is going to be ****ed and out of it. Pitcher B gives up three runs in the first, the team has a better chance of coming through. Let's they they score three to tie it up and then go four innings of zeros then guive up more. He is still keeping them in the game and is not pitching the same damn game as Pitcher A. Go look at gamelogs! Does it change the fact that they had piss poor games, no but they kept their team in the ballgame to try and win it which is their whole job!

apparantly you didn't read my full post

Let's say for argument's sake, all 7 runs are given up in the exact same fashion, same pitch count, same amount of strike outs, same number of HRs, same hitters hitting them off the SP, etc etc etc.

So, if all three pitchers give up the same number of runs in the same fashion, and in the same innings....what's pitchers B and C doing that pitcher A isn't?

[SF Kid]

They are still in the game even if he gives up five and his team only scores four. Its not hard to comprehend.

But they are in the game not because the starting pitcher did anything (he got bombed) special but because his teammates got hot and scored some runs. I don't think that's a very good example of a pitcher "keeping the team in the game". JMO.

[love_that_reefer]

apparantly you didn't read my full post



So, if all three pitchers give up the same number of runs in the same fashion, and in the same innings....what's pitchers B and C doing that pitcher A isn't?

Obviously you didn't read my post because its all right there.

[love_that_reefer]

But they are in the game not because the starting pitcher did anything (he got bombed) special but because his teammates got hot and scored some runs. I don't think that's a very good example of a pitcher "keeping the team in the game". JMO.

But my example was him keeping them in the game. Of course the offense helped but he helped as well by sticking with it and saving some arms in the bullpen. Because he gives up seven runs and his team wins the ballgame he doesn't deserve a win?

[HollywoodLeo]

Obviously you didn't read my post because its all right there.

let me repeat myself

Let's say all three pitchers pitch the same exact game, as in give up the same number of runs (7 in my example) and give them all up in the same innings.
In otherwords they pitch the same exact game

That's a bit different than the example you provided where Pitcher A gives up all 7 runs in the 1st and the other two give them up scattered throughout

[love_that_reefer]

How? Explain? If a pitcher gives up seven runs in the first and pitches six innings and another one pitches six innings and spreads the seven around, its not the same game!

[HollywoodLeo]

But my example was him keeping them in the game. Of course the offense helped but he helped as well by sticking with it and saving some arms in the bullpen. Because he gives up seven runs and his team wins the ballgame he doesn't deserve a win?

if he gives up 7 runs, but the pen gives up more...than he should get it by default, all the while just keeping in mind wins can happen that way.

My main argument is more arguing against some of the examples you see me constantly post in here where a pitcher pitches a great game, the pen comes in and blows it, but then the offense comes back again and that ****tard from the bullpen hew blew it in the first place gets awarded the win.

Are you telling me Scott Cassidy deserved the win over Chris Young in my initial example? How exactly was Scott Cassidy keeping the Padres in the game by giving up a 3 run game-tying blast?

[HollywoodLeo]

How? Explain? If a pitcher gives up seven runs in the first and pitches six innings and another one pitches six innings and spreads the seven around, its not the same game!

but i'm the one providing the example. you can't just change MY example and make it fit your argument

[love_that_reefer]

Well you said game tying blast which means they were in the game anyways but now you are getting into the bullpen. Oscar Villareal has 7 wins as a reliever. Is that fair? No, but that's baseball. Is he going to win any kind of award for having the most wins as a reliever? No! Pitchers get ****ed all the time but there is no real way of solving this problem. People put too much faith in these stats and that's where I agree with you. Like I said, stats only tell half the story. They are more a guide than the absolute bottom line. I love when people try and compare players by positions because that does no good. Comparing J.T. Snow to Carlos Delgado? What good does that do anyone?

[love_that_reefer]

but i'm the one providing the example. you can't just change MY example and make it fit your argument

They are still the same stat lines but different situations!

[HollywoodLeo]

Well you said game tying blast which means they were in the game anyways but now you are getting into the bullpen. Oscar Villareal has 7 wins as a reliever. Is that fair? No, but that's baseball. Is he going to win any kind of award for having the most wins as a reliever? No! Pitchers get ****ed all the time but there is no real way of solving this problem. People put too much faith in these stats and that's where I agree with you. Like I said, stats only tell half the story. They are more a guide than the absolute bottom line. I love when people try and compare players by positions because that does no good. Comparing J.T. Snow to Carlos Delgado? What good does that do anyone?

this I fully agree on. I'm simply stating the stat is overrated...meaning people put too much importance on it, so I guess we both agree on the crux of the argument.

[HollywoodLeo]

They are still the same stat lines but different situations!

the example I put forth was that the 3 pitchers had the same exact game and gave up the runs in the same exact fashion at the same exact points of the game. I even went as far as to state they had the same exact pitch counts.

You can't just say "well, scrap that, I have no counter-argument, so let's change the scenario around"

So, again, if all 3 do pitch the same exact game What exactly are pitcher's B and C doing that pitcher A isn't?

[love_that_reefer]

Amen!

[Providence A's]

no system is perfect. That's just baseball. That's the way it's been forever. I think most logical people realize that there are better stats to rate how well a pitcher has been pitching (ERA, WHIP, etc), but that's just the way wins get assigned in the stat book. Don't pay attention to it if it bothers you so much. Otherwise, we get your point