Random Reds Rumblings

[missionhockey21]

Really there is no reason Coffey should have left the game.

And why does Salmon not get a chance in this role? I guess he isn't "experienced" enough for Jerry. And he probably throws too hard.

Listen CRF, we all know the rules, you come up young and play hard with success... fighting for every opportunity you get to do so. You then lose your stuff and get old, and you get the opportunities that you should of gotten while you were young, only now you don't deserve them. Let's talk about Salmon in 15.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Freel singles to LF. 1st and 2nd, 0 outs.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Haha, that is classic mission.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Phillips swings at one in the ground to get it to 0-2...

Phillips flies out to RF. Hamilton to 3B. 1st and 3rd, 1 out.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Griffey GIDP to SS (hard).

Astros win 7-5.

That sucked.

[NFLman2033]

wow, no one has posted anything since last Saturday outside of this thread.. that really sucks.. I guess I will have to do something about it

[redsrbetter]

Sorry for the lack of gamethreads guys. I wanted to do one today but the game was blacked out and not on FSN for me.

I heard Hamilton had another huge game. Two HRs, outfield assist to 3B to get Tavares, and a great catch over his shoulder in CF.

Dude stole 3B last Yesterday too and went 4 for 5. If he isn't showing he is better than we all expected even past all the hype, then something is wrong. Amazing!

Reds win today behind Arroyo as the bullpen held up somehow.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Interesting article....just sayin'

Pitchers and catchers: a team within the team
Reds insider

Jerry Narron was a 23-year-old rookie. He was going to catch Catfish Hunter for the first time. They had the usual meeting to go over the scouting report.

Said Narron: "He told me, 'Whatever you call, I'm going to throw it. If I don't like it, I'll throw it so they can't hit it.' "

Hunter had a pretty good day that day.

But most pitchers aren't headed for the Hall of Fame the way Hunter was. They need a little more help from the catcher. The pitcher- catcher working relationship has come up a lot with the Reds this year because Narron has continued to give David Ross the bulk of the playing time despite his struggles at the plate.

The Reds' ERA when Ross is catching is 3.49. Narron says that's not a coincidence.

"He's done a great job with our starters," Narron said. "It's huge."

The catcher calls every pitch and location, though the pitcher has a right to refuse the decision.

A pitcher-catcher relationship can have a major effect on game.

"It can totally change the outcome," Reds starter Aaron Harang said. "It affects how you pitch, how you attack the hitters."

A catcher must have a game plan, knowledge of the scouting report and a feel for what the pitcher throws.

"You study reports and you get a feel for a hitter," Ross said. "Even if there were no report, you have to get a feel for a guy when they get in the box. In the minor leagues you don't have scouting reports, so you learn to call a game that way. Looking at guys, how they set up. There's a lot that goes into it as you learn over your career."

But pitch selection and location are just the start.

The catcher is the pitching coach on the field. He can slow the pace of the game, or go to the mound to remind a pitcher of what a hitter did in a previous at-bat. But you need different styles for different pitchers.

"It's all about personality," Narron said. "That's one part about catching - knowing all the different personalities. A catcher has to know what they need: A pat on the back, a kick in the rear. Which guys are going to go along with everything. Which guys are going to fight you.

"There's pitchers out there who really trust everything the catcher calls for. There are pitchers who just don't want to be bothered by having to think. They see a sign and throw. There's other pitchers who think they have a much better idea than the catcher."

The Reds' pitching staff runs that gamut.

Bronson Arroyo admits he may lead baseball in shaking off signs. (That's when the pitcher literally shakes his head no, meaning he doesn't like the first sign and wants another choice.)

The rest of the staff rarely shakes off a call.

Matt Belisle likes to work quickly, and that can happen only when he's clicking with his catcher.

"It's something you don't force. If you're rolling, you're rolling - it's rolling," he said. "If the game is slow and I find myself shaking off too much, I'm getting in my own way and not trusting my stuff and not trusting my catcher, that's a time for me to take off and say, 'Let's establish a rhythm.' It's something that helps."

ARROYO'S STORY

Arroyo loves throwing to Ross, who caught 32 of his 35 starts last year and all six this year.

Still, Arroyo says he probably shakes off more pitches than anyone in the game.

"It's part of my game to be able to pick people apart mentally," Arroyo said. "A lot of times, when you're in synch with your catcher, he's kind of guessing along anyway. But, for the most part I pitch so much off of instinct instead of the scouting report that I wind up shaking off a lot.

"It doesn't matter if the game's going good or bad. That doesn't have anything to do with it. I don't feel comfortable getting beat around and second-guessing myself on what I should throw."

His relationship with catchers has had a huge effect on Arroyo's career.

He went 15-4 with a 3.65 ERA for Double-A Altoona (Pa.) in 1999. He made the Pittsburgh Pirates' roster the next year, going 2-6 with a 6.40 ERA, and was sent to Triple-A, where he began dominating again.

"When I'd come to the big leagues, they didn't want me to shake off (catcher Jason) Kendall," Arroyo said. "He didn't know my style of pitching. That took away the whole mental game for me to pick hitters apart. So without that, you're trusting in someone else to see things in a hitter that are impossible for them to know.

"No one can know on that day how I'm feeling on a 3-2 pitch with the bases loaded with Carlos Lee at the plate. No one can know if I'm more comfortable throwing a fastball or a breaking ball. Because it's only that day, it's only that inning. It changes so much. You've got to have a catcher who is willing to allow you to do your thing out there. When it comes down to it, nobody's ever going to look at the catcher and say he gave up seven runs in three innings. It's all on our shoulders."

Arroyo's lack of success in the majors prompted the Pirates to put him on waivers. The Boston Red Sox claimed him and sent him to Triple-A, and he dominated again.

When he got called up to the Red Sox, he sat down with catcher Jason Varitek, who told him to shake off until his heart's content.

"He made it known right away that he didn't care about that. I had just come up with the team and I was still a pretty young guy in the league, but he said, 'Whatever you want to throw, throw it. If I completely disagree, I'll come out and talk about it. I just want to get guys out. I don't care.' "

It was the start of a beautiful relationship. Arroyo went 24-19 with the Red Sox before he was traded to the Reds before the 2006 season.

"At the end of the day, I get the win or loss and the ERA," he said. "If I'm going to look like an ass in the spotlight, I want to be the one deciding the pitches."

BAD CALL OR BAD PITCH?

The one time Narron has questioned pitch selection this year was after a 5-4 loss at Arizona April 10. Kyle Lohse gave up four runs in that game - on a three-run homer to Chad Tracy and a solo shot to Chris Snyder. Both home runs came with two outs, and Snyder's came with the pitcher due up next.

Before each homer, Lohse shook off Javier Valentin to throw the pitch he wanted.

Lohse said in each case it wasn't selection, it was execution.

"It just wasn't executed," Lohse said. "Any pitch is good if you execute it. Sometimes it's a matter of an inch whether it's good or bad."

In the case of the pitch to Tracy that night, Lohse threw a fastball an inch or two lower than he wanted.

"That's pitching," Lohse said. "Some people would disagree, but I don't think there's any right pitch. There are pitches that are less right."

Generally, Lohse tends to throw what the catcher calls for.

"I might shake him once or twice a game," Lohse said.

Said Valentin: "A lot of pitchers know in a situation what they can do. If you feel 100 percent you can throw that pitch for that situation, that's fine. You're the one who decides what pitch you throw."

In Lohse's 1-0 win over the Cubs at Wrigley Field April 15, he simply followed Ross' plan.

"The days like that are rare," Lohse said. "(On those days) everything's working. It feels like they could put down anything at any count and you're going to put it right where they need it. Those days don't happen all the time."

It didn't happen in Lohse's most recent start. He struggled through six innings, allowing eight hits and three walks Wednesday at Houston. Limiting the Astros to three runs was a major accomplishment.

"I didn't have a feel for the fastball," Lohse said. "Javy and I were doing anything we could to get innings and keep us in the ballgame."

That's why communication is an ongoing thing. Lohse's plan was to establish his fastball, but his fastball wasn't working.

"You have to see what happens in the game," Valentin said. "We've got a plan, but it might not work when you see what the guy's got."

In the end, catchers are a little like football offensive linemen - they don't get a lot of credit, but they do get their share of blame.

Said Narron: "There are some pitchers who want to blame the catcher as soon as they give up a hit."

E-mail jfay@enquirer.com

[CincyRedsFan30]

Grades posted today from school...3 A's and 1 B for a 3.75 GPA for this semester.

Just pleased it's over.

[missionhockey21]

It is a good story and an element that I think many tend to forget (myself as well.) Ross's problem is both his blessing and his curse. He hit last year, especially early... for a lot of power. That won him the job but also won him expectations for this year. And while his bat is coming around, those expectations weren't being satisfied and coming off the contract extension he earned for his bat and his skills behind the plate, there was even more pressure. I think if Ross had to play due to an injury to LaRue and Valentin last year, earned his respect for his defensive skills and the ability to call a game, the reaction to his slump would of been a bit more tame. Similar to how many were OK with the Gonzales signing (even if it was a tad high) because the sacrifice in the run producing numbers (or at least what we expected as Gonzales has been very competent in the batters box as we all know) to gain solid defense from short on a consistent basis.

Good informative article though.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Well said.

As I've observed for a while though; it seems the pitchers are more comfortable with Ross and it seems he calls a better game than Valentin usually does.

Valentin is catching Lohse tonight. Let's hope he doesn't help screw things up.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Salmon gave up the HR tonight, but at least he has some pretty good stuff. He needs to work on a second quality pitch, but Berkman's HR wasn't a great swing or anything.

Unfortunately, as we continue to drop further and further back, reading these comments from John Fay's blog after the game is disheartening:


"The frustration finally boiled over in the Reds clubhouse. David Weathers took it out on the media a bit after the Astros beat up on the Reds bullpen for two in the seventh (Lance Berkman's two-run homer off Brad Salmon) and one in the ninth off Weathers.

“We know we’re blowing games," Weathers said. "It’s frustrating to all of us. You guys (in the media) act like it’s more frustrating to you. You all don’t put on the uniform. It hurts us personally.”

Weathers apologized for snapping and basically called out bullpen.

“We've got to stop all the talk,” Weathers said. “It’s got to start tomorrow. If we go out there with a lead, somebody needs to get it done.”

I can understand Weathers' frustration. But it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that the bullpen is imploding on the regular basis. The club is 14-19 and further under .500 than it was all of last year.

It sounds like it's going to be up to current corps of relievers to get it done. Jerry Narron said he general manager Wayne Krivsky talked about bringing in new arms before the game. But other than Jared Burton coming up when he's ready, nothing is going to happen.


“We’ll try these guys and give them an opportunity to pitch . . . we’ll stay with these guys,” Narron said. “They’re very capable of getting outs. That’s what we expect out of them.”

[CincyRedsFan30]

I will be at tomorrow night's (Wednesday) and Thursday afternoon's game.

I will post comments/a scouting report after both games.

I hope my stomach isn't turning too much after watching our bullpen two days in a row.

[missionhockey21]

At least Griffey is back. And Milton again, kept us in the game for 5 innings. It's shocking to think what our record could be with better bullpen management and more importantly a few premier arms in that pen.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Even WITH the too bad for words bullpen, our pythag. record is one game over .500 right now and 84-78 on the season (happens to be the record I predicted before the season). We are plus six in run differential right now.

The Brewers' pythag. is at 19-13 right now, which would have them only 2.5 ahead of us if better luck were on our side.