Club not getting what it paid for

[missionhockey21]

Club not getting what it paid for
Milton, Ortiz among biggest flops this year

By John Fay
Enquirer staff writer

My latest take on the Reds' problems: They spent too much money on payroll this offseason.

I'm serious.

If the Reds had just kept the payroll at last year's level, it's hard to argue that they'd be any worse this season.

And it's easy to make a case that they'd be better off next year.

First, let's look at this season. If the payroll had stayed at $46 million or so, that means the Reds wouldn't have re-signed Paul Wilson, wouldn't have traded for Ramon Ortiz and wouldn't have signed Eric Milton.

Those three pitchers, nominally the Nos. 1, 2 and 3 in the rotation, were a combined 6-18 going into Saturday's game. It's hard to imagine that whoever the Reds put in the rotation would have done any worse.

If the payroll would have stayed at $46 million:

The Reds probably would have been forced to trade Danny Graves when he still had some value.

They would not have offered D'Angelo Jimenez arbitration, opening second base for Ryan Freel.

Edwin Encarnacion and Felipe Lopez would have been the Opening Day left side of the infield. Encarnacion looked like he was ready for that in spring, and he has put up very good numbers at Triple-A. Lopez has played like an All-Star since the Reds gave him the chance.

It should be said that I - like most everyone else - thought the Reds did well by adding Milton and Ortiz and keeping Wilson. I thought Joe Randa and Rich Aurilia were great additions.

I thought most of them would put up the numbers on the back of their baseball cards and the Reds would be hanging in the National League wild-card race.

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[Reds_fan_4_life]

I thought Joe Randa and Rich Aurilia?? were great additions.

Great addition? i wouldn't call Rich Aurilla a great addition at all. I think he could be hitting more. I like him as a defensive player but yea saying that he is a great addition to the Reds organization makes John Fey looks stupid. Now Randa was a great addition(See Opening Day Series)

[Sea Ray]

Is anyone else out there getting irritated with the Enquirer's top beat writer continually giving O'Brien a pass? Just how idiotic is it to say the problem was the payroll but not that the money was spent unwisely?

The problem was not the $60mill payroll. It was the way O'Brien chose to spend it.

If a GM can't spend the money he's given wisely then he's "sorry" and deserves to be fired. I don't care what other qualities he brings to the table. He may be great at stacking the minor leagues, he may go to inner city schools and help the poor but if he trades Chris Reitsma, signs Ortiz, Milton, Wilson and Aurilia all in one calendar year then there's no hope for you as a GM. Why doesn't Fay show some backbone and tell it like it is???

[Fishercat]

I wonder how much of a choice he had. I'm sorry to be blunt, but unless you are from the mid-west, why would you want to play for Cincinnati?

As you all should know, I bashed Eric Milton to hell and high water. I said the signing blew and if my team did it, I'd be disappointed.

Really though, for 8 million, what else would you get. Obviously, hind sight is 20-20 and you wouldn't sign Gopher, but what other splash player is out there to create interest? Clement wouldn't have come for less than 9-9.5 million considering he had two AL playoff teams offering nice deals. You would have needed 11 for Pavano, a lot for Wright or Lieber. He could have gone the route I suggested for a bunch of value signings, but that wouldn't create interest. I know a few people here thought the Reds had to overpay a big player on the market to prove something.

I'm reading over some old threads, and I am noticing that a lot of people realized he made pitches to guys like Perez and Clement, but they turned the Reds down, and Milton was the last choice. Most people agreed he was overpaid but the Reds were okay for doing it.

[Fishercat]

And for what it's worth, everyone loved the Paul Wilson signing except Claussen. The reception on Ortiz's trade was a little mixed, although it seems the Reds fans liked it.

I liked the Aurilia signing as a depth signing (as did everyone else), few saw him starting. That's arguably Miley's fault.

[CincyRedsFan30]

I wonder how much of a choice he had. I'm sorry to be blunt, but unless you are from the mid-west, why would you want to play for Cincinnati?

As you all should know, I bashed Eric Milton to hell and high water. I said the signing blew and if my team did it, I'd be disappointed.

Really though, for 8 million, what else would you get. Obviously, hind sight is 20-20 and you wouldn't sign Gopher, but what other splash player is out there to create interest? Clement wouldn't have come for less than 9-9.5 million considering he had two AL playoff teams offering nice deals. You would have needed 11 for Pavano, a lot for Wright or Lieber. He could have gone the route I suggested for a bunch of value signings, but that wouldn't create interest. I know a few people here thought the Reds had to overpay a big player on the market to prove something.

I'm reading over some old threads, and I am noticing that a lot of people realized he made pitches to guys like Perez and Clement, but they turned the Reds down, and Milton was the last choice. Most people agreed he was overpaid but the Reds were okay for doing it.

Actually, it's said "Midwest"... and I hope that comment was directed just at the Reds being awful, and not at making fun of Cincy.

And I did think the Reds had to overpay on Milton in order to prove something, but O'Brien's biggest problem is not conceding the move didn't work and dumping him(Perhaps that comes back to Allen and ownership too though).

[CincyRedsFan30]

And for what it's worth, everyone loved the Paul Wilson signing except Claussen. The reception on Ortiz's trade was a little mixed, although it seems the Reds fans liked it.

I liked the Aurilia signing as a depth signing (as did everyone else), few saw him starting. That's arguably Miley's fault.

I didn't love the Paul Wilson signing. You need to check some other things out. I was worried he would start slipping back this year. Just ask Cincy, he knows I questioned him for being that excited about Wilson.

I hated the Aurilia signing too. I'm not sure where you see me saying I liked that signing, but I thought it was awful since I knew he was one of the worst players in baseabll.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Here is what I found:

04-20-2005, 06:08 PM
CincyRedsFan30
Moderator/S3F Writer Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cincy/Northern Kentucky area
Posts: 3,055



I like it except for Aurilia starting and hitting 7th ahead of LaRue...AGAIN!
(Were talking about lineups)

I also bash Wilson on that thread. I've always been concerned he'd regress from last year's performance.

Now, if you want to say I liked the Randa signing and that most didn't...then you have something.

[Fishercat]

CRF on Wilson:

"I agree with Wally Mo here. Based on the money we're going to be giving him, I like this move. I still want to see O'Brien add another starter however.

It's possible he adds another starter, but it looks like the pen is going to turn into his big focus. 3 or 4 bullpeners and possibly another starter would probably give us a decent chance of competing this coming season."

CRF on Aurilia:
Depth is the key here. Good move "just in case" we need him.

Both those comments are copied verbatim from when the signing was made.

[Fishercat]

Oh, and I was talking about the Reds, not the midwest (still a dumb nickname, it's the mideast really).

[CincyRedsFan30]

OK, you've got me with those quotes...BUT, even though I didn't mind the Wilson signing at the time, I still said several times I was worried he wouldn't be as good as he had been.

And on Aurilia, I guess I should have known Miley would use him SO improperly.

Now, how about you quote everyone on the Randa signing.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Oh, and I was talking about the Reds, not the midwest (still a dumb nickname, it's the mideast really).

That could actually go either way: Midwest OR Mideast. It's between(in the middle) of the West and the East(albeit closer to the East). The name of course derived from times when the Wild Wild West had yet to be discovered.

[Fishercat]

Checking the threads, you were more enthusiastic about Randa than the rest, but pretty much everyone thought it meant an OF was going to be traded for an SP, which didn't happen.

[Sea Ray]

The issue isn't so much what we said at the time. We're not running this team. The question is what O'Brien has done and has he spent the money wisely?

Milton--horrible but who would have said that he'd have an ERA in the mid to upper 7s? I expected him to have a high 4 ERA and that isn't worth $8mill/yr but that's an above average pitcher on this staff. Yes, O'Brien overpaid for him but I don't blame him for the 7+ ERA.

Aurilia- not a lot of money invested here so this is not really worth discussing. The problem with Aurilia is Miley's fascination with him.

Ben Weber-horrible pickup. Was sorry last year and is sorry this year. He was worth a minor league contract maybe

Ortiz- Should have been acquired maybe with the idea of using him in the 'pen. Not worth the money. Again, who would have guessed that he'd fall so far but not a good use of fragile funds

Randa- excellent pickup and he has performed like the back of his baseball card

It's no excuse for the O'Brien defenders to say "well, there weren't any better options by the time ownership gave him the money to spend." If that's the case then he sticks the money in his pocket and we open the year with a lower payroll. The issue isn't if not Milton, then Wright or Pavano.

[Fishercat]

Then, all I would hear would be. The Reds didn't spend money AGAIN. Why should I even try to follow the team when they just pocket the money. He took a risk, it seems to have failed, and what good would getting rid of Milton do now?