Scoring Runs vs. Patience

[CincyRedsFan30]

I've mentioned this in several recent Game Threads, but our offense has struggled in part because of a lack of patience. We are swinging at the first or second pitch WAY too much and that simply isn't the way our offense has the most success.

It seems many of the hitters are doing everything they can just to make contact with the ball instead of waiting for their pitch to hit or drawing a large number of walks.

Sometimes lately it has shown up in the box score as very few BB surrendered by the opposing pitchers and other times it has shown up simply as a quality outing for the opposing pitcher, but either way it has had a lot to do with a lack of patience. At times it has even shown up in both cases.

The approach of "just making contact" isn't a smart one and I don't know why the team would start going to it when the reason they were on pace for over 1,000 Runs Scored for a period of time earlier in the year dealt partly with being patient. Obviously some of it was simply a very hot start hitting wise, but a lot of it had to do with working the count and waiting for ones pitch and in some cases drawing a BB.

Since the goal of an offense is to avoid outs, the team should NOT be thinking about doing everything they can to make contact, as if that act will help lead them to getting more hits.

That strategy simply won't work.

[homerun21]

Um, no.

[Fishercat]

The CRF. He's learned.

[CincyRedsFan30]

It doesn't sound like homerun agrees with us, Fisher.

I just wish he'd actually say something to try to back up his point instead of saying, "um, no."

[missionhockey21]

No doubt about it. Plus this is kind of a snowball effect. We meet good hitters, we start to struggle as a team and see individual struggles. Players might get anxious to swing, to make contact to end that slump of their own and now it's getting to the poing of bringing the team out of a funk. We're not the same hitters that we usually are and hopefully with the day off they can clear their heads and get back to waiting for their pitch.

You can tell the frustration is mounting just by watching an at-bat now versus on the win-streak.

[CincyRedsFan30]

You're right.

It starts to wear on everyone and they all start to push themselves to go to any length to try to get hits.

It kind of relates back to what Kearns' thinking probably was early in the season, as you have mentioned before, mission. He wanted to "prove" himself through getting hits and driving in runners, since that is what Narron and most casual fans seem to worry about more than anything. It was as if he didn't think drawing BB would "show himself off" as much.

The thing is, they don't always HAVE to draw walks. They just have to have smarter and more patient AB and get hits on pitches they can handle and some walks will come as a natural chain reaction event.

Even more concerning are comments I've read in other areas about what Narron said on the pregame yesterday about Dunn. I didn't see it myself as I haven't been around during the last couple of games, but he apparently said that he wants Dunn to "chase" more pitches OUT of the STRIKZONE in an effort to drive in more runs! Just wow.

He also apparently said he wants Lopez to be more aggressive in certain situations. Maybe he could learn to hit pitches he should hit(pitches that are strikes over the middle of the plate, early in the count or something), but he shouldn't just be "aggressive for the sake of being aggressive" in "certain" situations.

If those are concepts he's been applying to Dunn and the team in general, he is even more idiotic than I already thought.

I hope the team rests as many players as they can for tomorrow night's HOF game, because many of them need it.

[missionhockey21]

That takes ranking over that game no doubt.

And I think Narron is doing what we all fear. Those thoughts that pop up in a logical baseball mind in a heated moment, but we have the common sense to realize the effects. Sure we have seen Dunn had an AB where he doesn't go after pitches that are called for strikes (and as we know, often they are mis-called) and I know for a split-second, I wish that he chased after those even if they were questionable. But if history's purpose is for us to avoid repeating the same mistakes, we'll learn that messing with Dunn is just going to mess him up more. Didn't Boone want him to do the same essential thing (or one in his crew)? Let Chambliss work with the man and get him back right, I hate the almost legendary slumps he can go through, but he'll get back on track with the right instruction (aka, No Narrons Allowed.)

[CincyRedsFan30]

We've had a problem with clutch hitting over the last few years and I know some don't believe clutch hitting exists and others insist it's because we don't have a high batting average with RISP.

I disagree with both of them.

I think it comes back to poor managing over the last several years. We have great offensive players who sometimes don't go about everything in the traditional sense offensively. So, our clueless managers try to make them hit balls that they shouldn't be swinging at. That leads to the team to start slumping. It's as if these managers don't realize that the team is on pace to score a record-breaking number of Runs because they don't always do the "little things" that those managers think are important.

So while I do think clutch hitting exists and I do think we've struggled with it in recent years, I think much of the reason that has been the case is because those running the team have been telling the players "do more, do more" when in reality they are already doing a lot as it is.

It seems we go through these stretches where we are not clutch at all and I think a lot of that is because of whispers in the ears of many of our players, especially those like Dunn. I don't think they threaten them with their jobs or anything, but I think they make them feel a lot of pressure and they start slumping. I think eventually they have seemed to snap out of the slumps in spite of what the managers have said over the last several years, but it always seems to take a while. I think the players eventually say, "I'm not getting hits, I just have to do this the way I can." They do and they start succeeding offensively again, until the next time the manager says "let's up your game even more." That's simply not smart at all.

They need to stop trying to fix what isn't broke.

[Fishercat]

Sometimes, I think hitters have to simply not listen to coaches. I know, that's hideous advice and bad advice for the vast majority of hitters. And most often, hitting coaches and managers know what they are doing with mechanics.

However, with hitters that know what they are doing, sometimes I think the coaches have to let them swing away. Pitching coaches know when to tinker with mechanics on the mound. They know when to allow a Nomo or Willis go through their crazy motions and they know when the way a pitcher pushes off the mound will eventually end up in chronic hamstring pain.

You look at a guy like Dunn, and for him, it just seems like a bad idea to force him to chase pitches. Would it be nice for Adam to bring his average up to .270 and perhaps swing at pitches that would be strikes? If umpiring was perfect, yeah. But Dunn has to do what he can. Is bringing that average up to .270 worth it if his OBP drops? To what extent? Also, even if there is an improvment, is it worth going through the transition, and a likely drop in production. Does shrinking Dunn's strikezone increase his effectiveness by allowing him to focus his power, or could that power be extended on borderline pitches? It may be worth it to explore such a thing, but changing an already good, young player too much may hinder him over a long period of time.

This reminds me a bit of David Ortiz. David Ortiz has always been a good player. The main crack against him was injuries. But he was still a nice bat. However, his production skyrocketed when he went to Boston. One of the big reasons was the difference between Ulleger and Papa Jack, the hitting coaches. Ulleger, for some inexplicable reason, forced Ortiz to choke up and wanted him to be a slap hitter almost. Ortiz still had some power, but he became limited. When he was signed by Boston, he was not only turned into a full-time DH to avoid the injuries (outside of interleague), but Papa Jack allowed him to swing away. Look at the results.

Sometime, less is more. And from what I've seen, the patient Reds aren't exactly a weak team. A team can succeed in many ways...but as was said, trying to fix what isn't broke isn't a good idea.

[homerun21]

This is overanalyzing.....we're still taking walks. We're just facing good control pitchers like Lieber. Lieber has 5 walks in 53 innings...we still lead the NL in walks. The problem is not patience, we're just not hitting right now. Hitting with RISP lately has been horrible.

[Wally Mo Pena]

if narron actually said that dunn should swing at pitches out of the strikezone, will someone post that article? that's just crazy, and i have to htink it was taken out of context, since narron is always talking about NOT swinging at pitches out of the strikezone, like this from lancaster's blog:

"Everybody tells me he’s got a chance to be a very good major league pitcher. I’ve watched some tape of him, and it looks like we’ve just got to make sure we don’t swing at balls out of the zone."

if he never told adam dunn to swing at pitches out of the strikezone, i agree with HR21, this is too much speculation and we just need guys (free/dunn) to start hitting again.

[homerun21]

Weather has to play a factor in this too IMO. The ball isn't carrying at Great American at all and the temp's been in the high 50's. Huge advantage for the pitchers right now, that's part of the reason we're pitching so well also.

[CincyRedsFan30]

Multiple individuals said Marty said Narron said that on the pregame the other day, so I tend to believe it until I hear otherwise.

The team hits better when they are being more patient.

The team simply hits better when they are more patient as a whole.

Lately the team has been free-swinging and has struggled and that is likely to continue to be the case as long as they continue to not wait for their pitches.

[Geki Ace]

You can't really chalk this up as a team-wide thing. I think a few players aren't being patient enough, while a few players have been being way too patient lately. I've been noticing Felipe, Edwin, and Kearnsy almost universally taking the first pitch no matter where it is. I'm okay with being selective on the first pitch, but they're taking some easy pitches to hit. Then we've got guys like Hatteberg who aren't being nearly patient enough (he should never, ever swing, since he's not very good at it). You can't generalize problems like this as the whole team. Individualize it.

[redsrbetter]

But look at guys like Felipe, EdE, and Kearns Geki. They are the only ones on the team who are swinging a hot bat. Does that clarify that it is better to be patient?

Just a thought and not a disagreement by the way.