Joe Maddon is the next Cubs manager.

[HollywoodLeo]

Tell Randy Moss that.

Randy Moss didn't go to a team that was overhauled from top to bottom. He went to a team that still had many of the cogs responsible for losing in place, not the least of which the guy at the top.

[Mach]

Anyone who wouldn't play to the best of their ability just because they're wearing a Cubs uniform is likely someone who wouldn't succeed on any team anyways.

It's not a not playing to their ability, it's a feeling of going in defeated, and as soon as something bad happens, like a losing streak, it just implodes on itself. Everyone goes here we go again, same old [insert team here], and the cycle perpetuates.

[Mach]

Randy Moss didn't go to a team that was overhauled from top to bottom. He went to a team that still had many of the cogs responsible for losing in place, not the least of which the guy at the top.

You didn't mention an overhauled team in that discourse, you were just talking about someone who doesn't put in full effort because of a certain team/uniform/situation.

[HollywoodLeo]

You didn't mention an overhauled team in that discourse, you were just talking about someone who doesn't put in full effort because of a certain team/uniform/situation.

I've used the word "overhaul" 4 times in this thread thus far.

[HollywoodLeo]

It's not a not playing to their ability, it's a feeling of going in defeated, and as soon as something bad happens, like a losing streak, it just implodes on itself. Everyone goes here we go again, same old [insert team here], and the cycle perpetuates.

But is it really same old "team" when the entire team has been overhauled top to bottom?

We're not discussing some team that just changed their head coach/manager and brought in a FA or two here. We're talking about a team that's gone through massive overhaul, leaving only the name "Cubs" and the uniforms the same.

Anyone who would go into that situation and believe they're destined to lose just because they have the word "Cubs" on their jersey is likely someone who doesn't have the mental fortitude to win at professional sports anyway.

[Mach]

I've used the word "overhaul" 4 times in this thread thus far.

in that direct statement you didn't though, which is why Moss was brought up.

[HollywoodLeo]

And it's not like I don't grasp the concept of a losing culture and how that can hurt a team even if they bring in good players.

But the point of disagreement here seems to be that it's the people within an organization that creates that culture, while you (at least per my perception) seem to be arguing that just being the "Chicago Cubs" creates that culture.

The Raiders are a perfect example of what you're trying to argue because throughout the years they kept many of the same people in place, namely the decision makers. And even after Al passed away he wasn't exactly replace by anyone better.

As I stated earlier in the thread, if the Raiders underwent the massive top to bottom overhaul the Cubs have gone through I'd give them just as much the benefit of the doubt.

This doesn't mean I'd predict the Raiders to win, I just wouldn't say they're definitely going to lose based on the exploits of other people wearing the same clothing that came before them. It's the same with the Cubs today.

[HollywoodLeo]

in that direct statement you didn't though, which is why Moss was brought up.

So, what you're saying is if you purposely ignore the earlier conversation which serves as the basic premise of my ongoing argument then you can nitpick it to fit your argument?

[Mach]

But is it really same old "team" when the entire team has been overhauled top to bottom?

We're not discussing some team that just changed their head coach/manager and brought in a FA or two here. We're talking about a team that's gone through massive overhaul, leaving only the name "Cubs" and the uniforms the same.

Anyone who would go into that situation and believe they're destined to lose just because they have the word "Cubs" on their jersey is likely someone who doesn't have the mental fortitude to win at professional sports anyway.

Maybe they don't, but there's a ton of said players. I can't do it at work but there's a ton of players who have said they go in and it's a mentality of losing. I'm not sure how many were complete rebuilds at that time.

I mean, the Cubs had just brought in a new manager last year in which the culture and everything had supposedly changed. They were still a terrible team. It's not a question of they go in thinking they'll lose, they think things will change and be better, but when things get tough, unless they have that fortitude, they kind of just quit.

[HollywoodLeo]

Maybe they don't, but there's a ton of said players. I can't do it at work but there's a ton of players who have said they go in and it's a mentality of losing. I'm not sure how many were complete rebuilds at that time.

I mean, the Cubs had just brought in a new manager last year in which the culture and everything had supposedly changed. They were still a terrible team. It's not a question of they go in thinking they'll lose, they think things will change and be better, but when things get tough, unless they have that fortitude, they kind of just quit.

In the vast majority of cases where a player goes to a team and talks about a "mentality of losing" or something to that ilk you're talking about a team with a losing culture created by the people within that team/organization and they added that player or two.

That's different from a team that's gone through massive top to bottom overhaul, not the least of which served the purpose of ridding themselves of the previous culture.

And I wouldn't say the Cubs were a terrible team last year, they were merely a team still building.

[Mach]

building is why they were bad, but they were still bad.

In any case, I think what Theo does will have a much larger impact than anything Maddon can or will do and that will be the biggest determinant of whether the Cubs remain losers or not.

[Prynce]

But is it really same old "team" when the entire team has been overhauled top to bottom?

We're not discussing some team that just changed their head coach/manager and brought in a FA or two here. We're talking about a team that's gone through massive overhaul, leaving only the name "Cubs" and the uniforms the same.

Anyone who would go into that situation and believe they're destined to lose just because they have the word "Cubs" on their jersey is likely someone who doesn't have the mental fortitude to win at professional sports anyway.

The Cubs are still the Cubs no matter who has been ran out of town. They still play in Chicago. They have the same fans. Their past failures are still there, hence so is the expectation of failure. Their identity remains intact and just bringing in new players doesn't automatically mean a change in that identity.

I agree with Mach that it can alter a mindset and trigger a fresh start in culture.

The Cleveland Browns for example, moved to Baltimore and adopted an entirely new identity. Four years later they win the Superbowl and twelve years after that they win another while the "new" Browns started out as a brand new team in 1999, players, owners, coaches and all and even had the #1 overall pick in the draft. They however have so far only restarted and continued the failures that the original Browns abandoned.

[Prynce]

Randy Moss didn't go to a team that was overhauled from top to bottom. He went to a team that still had many of the cogs responsible for losing in place, not the least of which the guy at the top.

Does it really make a difference? Is it acceptable to you for a player to not play to the best of his abilities if he's walking into a team that's already an ongoing circus?

[Trendy Bastard]

Either way me responding to that sentiment wasn't off topic.

Lol who said you were off topic?

[Trendy Bastard]

If mach was right, the red and white Sox would still be in a drought